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The Prussian

Spanish officers 1917

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One comment or several about spanish army.

1) Bayern comment that the SpAr suffer of  macrocephal. This is very true and maybe the reason are that is based in french system since as least since Napoleón III. Better is a "latin" system that is very different in thinking to the anglosaxon... By example officers from Second Lieutenat  to captain are called Oficiales (Officers), not subaltern officers , and from mayor to colonel they are called chiefs (Jefes).  The centre of spanish ranking is the mayor or commandante (chief de batallón). They are the called in english and USA system "Comissioned Officers". Then when an army finish a war (civil by example) Soldiers go home but many people stay as "chusqueros"  or invalid or simplily, the Academy produce too much officers and sub-officers.

2) The comission in the spanish army doesn't exist in the sense you received an order to occupied a position by your directly superior, as can be the colonel. They have to be "comissioned" by an superior geenral school (La Academai General Militar) where you get the rank of First Leutenant, then go to an specialist academy as la "Academia de infantería de Toledo" for infantry, or Guardia Civil,etc. the non - comissioned officers as sub-oficcers too. They only can be changed of ranks by a High Tribunal. This is the theory. 

3) These officcers are called "de carrera" the same that in the goverment employee, that win his rank in an "Exam", and never lost the post even if they kill their mothers (I am FC and knows what happen with this theme). Is very difficult that an oficial o funcionario de carrera be convicted because other funcionarios form the court marcial or not marcial. And "Hoy por tí y mañana por mí" Today for me and maybe tomorrow for you. It don't mean the system is bad for itself, but make people run away problems and sometimes don't work. 

4)Well we have the "Oficiales de carrera" and "suboficiales de Carrera" that can come into generals the first and to major the second one, with the time and in special if they have some "help" in the General promotions. Anyway the pillar of the army are the Lieutenant colonel and the sergeant, I think as  in all armies. In Spain the Sergeant when past to Brigade or more , leaves the arms and get the papers. And the bottle sometimes. Here between a Sergeant and a soldier there are a lot of diferences as least in "My no-profesional army" (I am talking about the 80 when it was an army) A Sergeant or first C. can command a tank or a platoon. And suboficial a mean  from Brigada to subteniente are administrative post in any "empleo", the company in special brigada is the chief administrative, since 30 years you can be brigada, more or less. They don't have to fight if is not necesary.

The ranks and the post of a soldier is by example  a soldier can ascend to corporal after a course ( recommended by the chief of company) this is the rank (non-comissioned) the soldiers are soldiers and are the only men that work in the army are really less than in the others  armies, first soldiers, caporals and first-caporals are the called "Clases" and they don't work and just make guards of "door". (that is their penalty cause they fall by thousand all days)

About punishment and penalties for the soldiers and clases this page (that I put before) this web is very interesting and shows that the spanish army is RIP and the people that managed it come from Mars or Plenty-Moon nowadays. I will translate some selected parts later.

http://www.am-tm.es/node?page=4

 

Edited by Boris

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Boris : The british historian of the Spanish Civil War ,Hugh Thomas ; said that the Agreement of Vergara at the end of the Carlist War provoked the beginning of the excessive number of officers in the spanish army . possible but the Cuban rebellion and the moroccan skirmishes blooded the officers corp one and another time . for not mention the war with USA In Cuba and Filipinas and between 1909 and 1925 the nightmare of Morocco . I prefere to think : first : the spanish man was for centuries warrior .. second : the military career was and is a possibility for social advance not only in Spain , was also a window to other way of life more adventurous for many youngs with scarse money . saludos Bayern 

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Hello Bayern

You are very right about the Agreement of  Vergara, but it likes there is a curse in the spanish history from that is impossible to go away.

Amadeo de Saboya

In this film (in spanish) You can see a new italian dynasty, bring to Spain for general Prim (liberal), that was death few time after Amadeo Comes, and could'nt stand this new way to think, much more european and competent that fall in the demoralization general that submerge Spain after the Fernando VI rule and that you can see in "los caprichos" de Goya, it is like a demon that always is there to stop any progress to the nation.

Caprichos de Goya

 

About The military career since centuries and in special since the last civil war works with the  endogamy   by flag as near all the services to the state that pass (triking) from father to son,with the problems it bring as incompetence and ignorance. And are really near to impossible to correct, because the cowardice of people in general, tha6t is a genetical problem even. Cause in the wars use to die the best, and the new generation is composed of sons of the surviving, that probably were cowards or worse.

About the soldier, in a professional army, that is better a mercenary army as the spanish, you don't find reflected the society as in a national army, just the worse and fooler finish in the army that don't pay enough ans so long to be an steady job. Of course the officcers spend all their life in the army casue is very safe for them and finish soon waiting for a very good retirement.

And this is a problem, I think, for some reason I don't have clera that have a lot of hispanic countries, like Méjico or La Argentina.

 

Regards

 

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Hello Boris : Really a sort of curse a maldicion in spanish, appears to pend over the destiny of Spain along the centuries .every temptative of modernisation was failed it not failed alone , personally my point of view is that Spain after the Indenpendence War began to be a sort of british dominion , perhapas not political but certainly economical .a strong Spain does not accomodate with the british interests ,and remember , England was the arch enemy of Spain . of the spanish Empire , England profited of the forced alliance of the Borbons with Napoleon for make the war , sublevate the american colonies and destroy the great spanish fleet at Trafalgar .Later envoyed british troops to the Peninsula to help the restoration of the infamous Fernando vII and never really England alighted her grip over Spain .In regard to National vs Mercenary Armies : in Argentina the National Army served well during nearly a century ,but is a large theme . Cheers, Bayern 

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Hello Bayern

I don't think have been England or other countrie the responsible of  the "maldicón", maybe in the Portuguese fact it have been this way. And not was only England the country that support Fernando VI, better were all the european monarchies in the Viena Congress (the new european order after Napoleón) the ones that crush the liberal mouvement in Spain through the "One hundred thousand sons of Saint Louis (Los Cien Mil Hijos de San Luis), thta were french. The independence of America were not such, better was a transfer of power between Spain and the local oligarchies, via civil war between liberals and monarchic that cut into pieces an empire that works very well economically and politically was near to get a big nation and not 20. Like the canada or other british dominions, without any war or problem. The british only can help the rebelds but didn't were decisive as  in the three hundred years before that French,English, Hollanders couln't catch any important city or part of the Empire. Mainly because the local people was who defended the Empire, as In Buenos Aires througt the local militia and not the spanish army that were just in some strong holes and were very weak. (not the Navy).

Anyway the traditional enmity with the UK that was friendship before the "Invencible" and María Estuardo. Could change but the bad luck ,france and the weak of spanish governments make the things as it were.

Anyway the history of Spanish decadence, that come for many factors is bad nowadays for all Europe. I hope it will be change soon or... never.

Edited by Boris

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Dear Boris : I went too far , i believe, the forum is not for political history , Respect of Spain and her fate ,still i think the views expresed , respect of her empire and the indenpendentist movements , I am an argentine born , here educated and well ,specially in our history . I can assure the british influence and interest in the Independence . well ,the spanish decadence is a bad thing , but dont trust so much in europe for France a independet Catalonia is not a bad idea ; for Great Britain the same. You must think too about Morocco perpetually disputing the fishing areas and claiming the devolution sic of Ceuta and Melilla .last but not least GB not for a while thinks of the devolution of Gibraltar . Cheers 

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Hello Bayern

I learn of an argentinian history master (I don't remember now the name) what really was the Spanish Empire, that was not an empire like English in XIX century, by example. The basis of it were nor the gold, neither the Atlantic. Really were the commerce

with China and the India trough Manila, in silver ingot. That were the traditional way of exchange in Asia. And thinking that the richest city in america was Méjico, Lima, etc... and that the ruin of hispanic américa comes better from the Manifest destiny that from the English conspiracy. In the Treat of Utrech English have won enough rigths over the american comerce. Note that Spain preserve untill finish of XIXth Philippines, Cuba, and the Ocean Pacific Island and not was England the power that take the Philippines to get into Asia for the great door, but USA.

Talking about it, the problem for Spain to get Gibraltar again come not from UK better because the Gibraltar people don't want to pass from a Parlamentary System (with many advantages for them) as the English. To a oligarchie that is not a democracy, as we suffer in spain for 40 years.. If we should change the democratic system in a future, the Gibraltar People will clame to left the UK, and come to Spain.

(note that sometimes is imposible to talk about history (Or military History), without talk of politic. before is in most part the history of political affaires.

The case of Ceuta y Melilla is more complicated but is political, because USA and France , the Rif and other factors, religious in special are here and there. Anyway and basically, I would say that the most interested power in those places remind spanish is the monarchy of Morocco. And always France and USA are in the middle, of course.

Saludos

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