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Ökenräven

Help with Italian orders

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Hi,

 

have found this nice set that really attracts me. Does anyone know what kind of order this is and approx value for the group?

 

Best regards

 

Ökenräven 

10378643_bukobject.jpg

10378644_bukobject.jpg

10378645_bukobject.jpg

10378646_bukobject.jpg

According to the document, the group is awarded in 1938

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922F   

Insignia of what some call pseudo orders 'based/derived' from the Sacred Military Constantinian Order of Saint George Order.   Burke [World Orders of Knighthood & Merit] as well as internet sites detail the family Order upon which these are based.

These orders may be known by various name styles relating to or including the words  Constantinian Order.  One with blue ribbon probably an 'Orthodox Christian' variety based on the suspension crown type.  Guy Stair Sainty's 'self-styled orders' websites may have info regarding this and similar related orders. Don't know if these are on the Vatican or Italian lists of non-recognized/proscribed Orders.

 

Value depends on how much one likes them.  Sometimes this sort of insignia appears at auctions on on e#bay with star/neck badge sets going from US$80 to US$300.   

 

 

 

 

Edited by 922F
spelchek

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Igor Baron Schmidt von der Launitz, was apparently born in Riga in 1910 and founded the so called Imperial Order of St George , apparently founded by Constantine the Great. The family heralded from Russian Imperial Officer stock. I believe his so called Order is that displayed on the left. With the bestowal document it is quite amusing. I wonder how much the vain individual parted with in order to satisfy his sense of importance and to keep von der Launitz in the style he wished to be accustomed to. At least it is of some age rather than the modern abominations which spring up by the bucket load. I think I will create the Order of the Inebriated Toad of Tabaristan and I will make a special, generous, membership offer to GMIC members of £1,000 in used notes.

Paul

 

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Claudius   
2 hours ago, paul wood said:

 I think I will create the Order of the Inebriated Toad of Tabaristan and I will make a special, generous, membership offer to GMIC members of £1,000 in used notes.

Paul

 

a thousand quid?!!, can I earn it through some other means, like services to the Order founder?  Like catching rats on the premise or dispensing fragrance for the Grand Master?

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922F   

Ökenräven,

It's generally hard to discover details about these sorts of organizations because:  1) Many no longer exist or have very convuluted schisms c.f. Russian St. John Order 'priories'  2) While they generally have/had a specific and usually very formal organization complete with cloaks, uniforms, statutes, membership lists, exhalted [inflated?] Grand Master bios and so on, informational/historical documents are usually impossible to locate  3) persons who feel 'taken-in' by such entities are reluctant to reveal information about them  4) many 'sailed close' to various personalities, actual titled families' awards, or 'questionable charitable activities' leading to legal actions against them thus those involved want to maintain their distances & 5) few people study them.

It's also difficult to assess such Orders' actual size/activity. The quality of the insignia really does not seem to indicate the 'heft' of these organizations. Some really do have hundreds of members, get involved in actual charity work, and serve more than just a social function. They may get well-known but perhaps 'uninformed' people to endorse them. Others exist mainly as ego-bosters or sources of income for fantasy prince grand masters, involving relatively few long-term members. An introduction to the general subject may be located at http://www.chivalric...asy/fantasy.htm.

Books on this topic include:

Ordres et contre-ordres de chevalerie by Arnaud Chaffanjon, Mercure de France Paris 1982.
Faux Chevaliers vrais gogos by Patrice Chairoff, Jean Cyrile Godefroy Paris 1985.
The knightly twilight by Robert Gayre of Gayre, Lochore Enterprises Valletta 1973.
Orders of knighthood, Awards and the Holy See by Peter Bander van Duren and Archbishop H.E. Cardinale (Apostolic Delegate in the United Kingdom), Buckinghamshire 1985.
World Orders of Knighthood and Merit by Guy Stair Sainty and Rafal Heydel-Mankoo (ed), Burke's Peerage 2006.
Ephemeral Decorations, Gillingham, H. E. New York, 1935. American Numismatical Society: Numismatic Notes and Mongraphs 66.
Knights of Fantasy: an overview, history, and critique of the self-styled 'Orders' called 'of Saint John' or 'of Malta', in Denmark and other Nordic countries, Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard, Turku 2002

 

That said, if you like the insignia and the price is right, collect them!   

 

Paul,

Regarding the Order [Odour?] of the Inebriated Toad of Tabaristan, happy to see Xorshet.png, and his works continue to get the attention they so richly merit!  Ain't got no quid nor puffins...... Will you accept 10 Araucanían and Patagonian pesos in lieu of 1000 dirhame?     If so, sign me up for 3; Grand Cross civil, military & swords on ring!!!!

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Claudius   
4 hours ago, paul wood said:

1,000 Lundy Island puffin coins are also accepted as payment.

Paul

take a personal check?

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Countersigned by Martin Coles Harman, certainly.

Paul

20 hours ago, 922F said:

Ökenräven,

It's generally hard to discover details about these sorts of organizations because:  1) Many no longer exist or have very convuluted schisms c.f. Russian St. John Order 'priories'  2) While they generally have/had a specific and usually very formal organization complete with cloaks, uniforms, statutes, membership lists, exhalted [inflated?] Grand Master bios and so on, informational/historical documents are usually impossible to locate  3) persons who feel 'taken-in' by such entities are reluctant to reveal information about them  4) many 'sailed close' to various personalities, actual titled families' awards, or 'questionable charitable activities' leading to legal actions against them thus those involved want to maintain their distances & 5) few people study them.

It's also difficult to assess such Orders' actual size/activity. The quality of the insignia really does not seem to indicate the 'heft' of these organizations. Some really do have hundreds of members, get involved in actual charity work, and serve more than just a social function. They may get well-known but perhaps 'uninformed' people to endorse them. Others exist mainly as ego-bosters or sources of income for fantasy prince grand masters, involving relatively few long-term members. An introduction to the general subject may be located at http://www.chivalric...asy/fantasy.htm.

Books on this topic include:

Ordres et contre-ordres de chevalerie by Arnaud Chaffanjon, Mercure de France Paris 1982.
Faux Chevaliers vrais gogos by Patrice Chairoff, Jean Cyrile Godefroy Paris 1985.
The knightly twilight by Robert Gayre of Gayre, Lochore Enterprises Valletta 1973.
Orders of knighthood, Awards and the Holy See by Peter Bander van Duren and Archbishop H.E. Cardinale (Apostolic Delegate in the United Kingdom), Buckinghamshire 1985.
World Orders of Knighthood and Merit by Guy Stair Sainty and Rafal Heydel-Mankoo (ed), Burke's Peerage 2006.
Ephemeral Decorations, Gillingham, H. E. New York, 1935. American Numismatical Society: Numismatic Notes and Mongraphs 66.
Knights of Fantasy: an overview, history, and critique of the self-styled 'Orders' called 'of Saint John' or 'of Malta', in Denmark and other Nordic countries, Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard, Turku 2002

 

That said, if you like the insignia and the price is right, collect them!   

 

Paul,

Regarding the Order [Odour?] of the Inebriated Toad of Tabaristan, happy to see Xorshet.png, and his works continue to get the attention they so richly merit!  Ain't got no quid nor puffins...... Will you accept 10 Araucanían and Patagonian pesos in lieu of 1000 dirhame?     If so, sign me up for 3; Grand Cross civil, military & swords on ring!!!!

10 Tierra del Fuego Julius Popper pesos also accepted

Paul

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