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camelneck

Gallipoli Star (real or fake)

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Hi,

I was thinking about buying this Gallipoli star.  The front side looks beautiful and is very unique.  The enamel appears to be antique, but then again, I don't consider myself an expert.  However, what bothers me most is the fact that there are several casting mistakes on the back side of this award.  It appears to be very rough in places and there is a lot of pitting especially around the balls.  A friend of mine also pointed out some pitting on and around a couple of the balls on the front side (particularly the ball on the 9 o'clock arm). 

Since variants of this award were made in Turkey, Austria, and Germany, I've seen many different examples of this award and I've also heard the quality of workmanship varied from excellent to fair.  Thus, I'd like to hear from some fellow collectors who know a lot more about this award than I do.  Is this medal a fake or is it just a victim of shoddy workmanship (especially on the reverse side)? 

Thanks,

David aka Camelneck

 

 

 

Turkey--My Iron Crescent F.jpg

Turkey--My Iron Crescent R.jpg

Edited by camelneck

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Hello Demir.

I have the same doubt about this example. What do you think?2928833.jpg.ebd09211cc821bdc7ab899059219ee68.jpg

2928833_1.jpg.a5c5468ae794c4a5b921cdf9c856e84d.jpg

2928833_2.jpg.671eb0f27372b877318b00f462df5d92.jpg

 

Best Regards

Lambert

 

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Hi Lambert,

As you know any medal which was not made during and after the WWI or ordered to a foreign producer (if there is any) by the Ottoman Mint is a replica or a copy (whichever word one prefers) which we consider as period items, because of the fact that people hasn't been able to get their medals from the Ottoman Government after the war so that they supplied their own medals from the German and Austrian manufacturers.

What we are discussing recently was not the ones made during that period but medals produced recently and call them fakes.

IMHO this is a period item, maybe Austrian make because of the style of the tougra. Date is missing. 

Best wishes

Demir

 

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Demir,

I would disagree with your use of the terms "replica or copy" for period and post war Ottoman awards  made in Germany or Austria.  In English, these terms are almost equal with the term "fake".  Using the terms "period or post war made" would be far more correct.

Regards,

Gordon

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Hello Gordon,

Nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, Sometime ago, I remember, in one of the discussions, I have agreed to use those terms. I think this is the only medal in the world which could be produced by some other country and considered to be period item. There was no other way of course to be able to get the medal since there was no Turkish Government.

Regards

Demir

 

Edited by demir

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Hi,

@camelneck - this "Iron Crescent" a modern fake/replica/specimen. It's "specimen type L" in my book about all the original and fake types of the "Iron Crescent"

 

@lambert- It's "original type O" in my book. German made. A precious piece, made from 1915/1916 to about 1935.

Yes, as Mr. Demir Erman said. There is the Ottoman original (2 Types) manufactured from 1915 to 1918. And then there are the grade I German/Austrian pieces manufactured from 1915 to 1919 (I call them the War period originals), the grade II German pieces manufactured from 1919 to about 1935 an the grade III German/Austrian pieces manufactured from about 1935 to 1945 (NS mass production types). Outstanding of these 3 grades there are a hand full of luxury classics wich have changed just a little in details. All pieces manufactured from 1915 to 1945 can be called originals but there are graduations. In the narrow sense only the 2 Ottoman original types and all German/Austrian pieces manufactured from 1915 to 1919 are the real original ones.

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Hello Abtomat,

1. You said what is the title: "It's "specimen type L" in my book about all the original and fake types of the "Iron Crescent"  what is the title? 

2. You said: "  only the 2 Ottoman original types and all German/Austrian pieces manufactured from 1915 to 1919 are the real original ones."  What are the two original types, can you post their photos?

Thanks

Demir

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Hello Mr. Erman,

my book will be released next year. It still needs a little work on it. Old German professional quality. I am thinking about translate and release it in English too with the publishing company. Until then it's still a secret ... the title too.

Over many years I created a archive, a collection and a great typology for all the graduations of originals and also listed ALL fakes. That will be a help for all the collectors.

Your 2nd question: Yes, there were (and there are out in the world) 2 types of the original Ottoman made Turkish War Medal. In your book and also in Nikolajew's book there was nothing said about that. Did you really never noticed the 2 various types? Of course I can post photos of the two types but I do not want to until my book is finished. I know you'll notice the typical difference between the 2 various types for your own because you are a sincere Turk and you maybe love the original Ottoman Turkish types as I do.

You did a great job with your book! It's small but a really good introduction. The best on market! There are just a few little mistakes. Even Nikolajew's book is much more extensive, your book is for a thousand times better than Nikolajew's book! Nikolajew made hundreds of mistakes in his book. Also his typology is extremly chaotic and he misinterpreted types and makers of the Turkish War Medal ...

Once there was a discussion about who was the maker behind the marking "B. B. & Co." and the embarrassing guess that it could be the company that is working as "Gebrüder Binder GmbH" today. You asked who has proven it, right? I did! I called the managing director some time ago. I did it just for fun and for falsification of ALL collectors myths, because I knew that it's totally wrong! The company "Gebrüder Binder GmbH" was founded 30 years ago by one of the actual managing directors. This information should be enough. Also: There never was a company named "Gebrüder Binder & Co." in Lüdenscheid.

Mr. Erman, you also asked whether the Germans used the letter type of "&" and the abbreviation of "Co." in Company names. Yes, of course we did. We did this for a long time. Mainly and in extreme numbers from 1890 until the 1940s. After WWII the abbreviation of "Co." no longer was a official abbreviation in commercial law for company names here in Germany. If we find it in German company names today, it is only a part of an old companys tradition but not legally any more. "Co." don't mean "Company", it means "Compagnie". It's a Romance element in old German business language. In English it means "cronies", "business partners" or "other business owners". The letter type of "&" has a looooog tradition in German language, especially in commercial communication. In Germany it is even called the "Kaufmanns-Und".

For any more contact I would be glad about a private message.

 

For Emperor and Sultan! Sincerely

ABTOMAT

Edited by ABTOMAT

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Hello everyone

Thank you very much for the comments.

Cheers

Lambert 

 

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The shown piece with screwback is a private purchased piece of the Deutsche Offiziersverein.

The enamel is not the best and the Jahreszahlen are missing.

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