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Farkas

Early Scottish rifles busby - Bugler Jacobs 1246

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Sadly... This has had a hard time. Moths have been well fed...and the front has been chopped open- to remove the plume holder I guess.

but happily there is more to it.

I was unaware when I got it that it was named:

"b company.  Sco Rifles.

no.1246

Bugler

C. A.Jacobs ". (G.A.?)

And labelled:

"Dobson and sons"

 

Sadly Bugler Jacobs is apparently not on medal rolls and I know no more.....

 

tony

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Edited by Farkas
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Interesting find Farkus, is the name label sewn in or stuck to the band, Hard to make out exactly.

Simon

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5 hours ago, coldstream said:

Interesting find Farkus, is the name label sewn in or stuck to the band, Hard to make out exactly.

Simon

Hi Simon

thanks for having a look

its a sticker which is attached to the lining. It is U.V. negative...,

the first part

b coy Sco Rifles is in red ink

then the rest in blue or black ink

all is written in the same hand I'm sure. I've assumed a quartermaster might have first labelled a batch for b coy and then later added individuals details as they were issued.

the makers label is a sticker also

i'm away from home today but I'll post some clearer photos of the labels on here tomorrow.

cheers

tony

 

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Thank Tony,

Look forward to seeing them. will see if I can find any records of your Man.

Regards Simon

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17 minutes ago, coldstream said:

Thank Tony,

Look forward to seeing them. will see if I can find any records of your Man.

Regards Simon

Thanks Simon

that really is good of you

tony 

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On 10/07/2017 at 15:12, coldstream said:

Interesting find Farkus, is the name label sewn in or stuck to the band, Hard to make out exactly.

Simon

Hi

Some better(?) photos of both labels below.....

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And a couple of its damage...

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IMG_1593.thumb.JPG.050abb38607cb9e5555b1dedd8d9b0a5.JPG

tony

 

Edited by Farkas
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Thanks Tony, can't say I've seen similar labels but that means nothing. Still searching for your Man and will let you know if I turn anything up.

Simon

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Tony,

As a start and by using this useful website it would appear that with your Man's number being 1246 he would have joined the Regiment between 29th July 1884 and 9th April 1885, next step will be to check the Regimental History to ascertain which campaigns the Regiment was involved in and then check the  relevant Medal Rolls for him.

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/cameronians-scottish-rifles-1881-1914.html

Simon

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Tony

Have just checked Ancestry UK site for Jacobs on the Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793 to 1949 with no direct match unfortunately, will keep you updated.

Simon

 

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4 hours ago, coldstream said:

Tony,

As a start and by using this useful website it would appear that with your Man's number being 1246 he would have joined the Regiment between 29th July 1884 and 9th April 1885, next step will be to check the Regimental History to ascertain which campaigns the Regiment was involved in and then check the  relevant Medal Rolls for him.

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/cameronians-scottish-rifles-1881-1914.html

Simon

Hi Simon,

my minor contribution!

the Hobson & sons label is torn but I can see in the address "Lex..."

they moved to Lexington Street in London in 1880.

so it would tie in with the 1884-85 date you found

tony

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Hi everyone, 

Although I cannot add anything to this, I would like to say despite this busby's bad condition, it is rare to find a named busby to the Scottish Rifles as I'm pretty sure only musicians of the regiment wore busbies (but I could be wrong there). I've personally only seen one for sale, and it was not named in a grouping, so nice find. 

Best regards,

-Jamie

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33 minutes ago, BlackWatch said:

Hi everyone, 

Although I cannot add anything to this, I would like to say despite this busby's bad condition, it is rare to find a named busby to the Scottish Rifles as I'm pretty sure only musicians of the regiment wore busbies (but I could be wrong there). I've personally only seen one for sale, and it was not named in a grouping, so nice find. 

Best regards,

-Jamie

Hi Jamie

First thanks for your info because it does support the case for a legit label - didn't know bout busby being less used.

And also - it is battered but I wouldn't change a bit if it!  I got it without knowledge of the labels. I loved the holes and tears and it was un loved so I grabbed it.... but

Perhaps it needs a new home mate..?

Do you happen to know if the  Sco Rifles have a museum of their own?

tony

Edited by Farkas

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The survival of such items - busbys, bearskins, and so on - is frequently because regiments continued/continue to outfit musicians and/or colour parties in 'historic uniform' long after it has been superceded as general issue.  That might also explain the damage - a QM salvaging a plume holder to repair another similar pice in better condition than this one.   

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Hi Tony, 

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) have a museum in Low Parks Museum, Hamilton, Lanarkshire. They also may be able to shine a little more light on your object, but I think your fellow forum members have done a splendid job of helping out on this one.

I too think this busby was well used, and maybe even re-used, or parts of it salvaged to repair another, but despite it not being in good condition I still like the piece and it is a nice piece to the Cameronians, and especially considering it from about circa 1884-85 period.

I am now pretty positive that these busbies were only used by musicians (e.g buglers) of the regiment, it makes sense as this busby is named to a bugler. While in full dress, the Scottish Riflemen wore shakos, as did the officers of the regiment, but being a rifle regiment, it would make sense that their buglers at least would wear the busby, as the busby was worn by the King's Royal Rifle Corps, and several volunteer rifle units and was the full dress headgear of both other ranks and officers of those units. 

Whether you keep the busby or it finds a new home, a lovely and rare piece that should be preserved so examples of the busby to the Scottish Rifles do not cease to exist, great find. 

Regards,

-Jamie

 

 

Edited by BlackWatch

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18 hours ago, BlackWatch said:

Hi Tony, 

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) have a museum in Low Parks Museum, Hamilton, Lanarkshire. They also may be able to shine a little more light on your object, but I think your fellow forum members have done a splendid job of helping out on this one.

I too think this busby was well used, and maybe even re-used, or parts of it salvaged to repair another, but despite it not being in good condition I still like the piece and it is a nice piece to the Cameronians, and especially considering it from about circa 1884-85 period.

I am now pretty positive that these busbies were only used by musicians (e.g buglers) of the regiment, it makes sense as this busby is named to a bugler. While in full dress, the Scottish Riflemen wore shakos, as did the officers of the regiment, but being a rifle regiment, it would make sense that their buglers at least would wear the busby, as the busby was worn by the King's Royal Rifle Corps, and several volunteer rifle units and was the full dress headgear of both other ranks and officers of those units. 

Whether you keep the busby or it finds a new home, a lovely and rare piece that should be preserved so examples of the busby to the Scottish Rifles do not cease to exist, great find. 

Regards,

-Jamie

 

 

 

On 17/07/2017 at 15:29, peter monahan said:

The survival of such items - busbys, bearskins, and so on - is frequently because regiments continued/continue to outfit musicians and/or colour parties in 'historic uniform' long after it has been superceded as general issue.  That might also explain the damage - a QM salvaging a plume holder to repair another similar pice in better condition than this one.   

 

On 12/07/2017 at 10:25, coldstream said:

Tony

Have just checked Ancestry UK site for Jacobs on the Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793 to 1949 with no direct match unfortunately, will keep you updated.

Simon

 

Hi Gents,

I'm keeping it now. Mine!

Thank you all.

Isn't it sad I only paid 30 quid for Bugler Jacobs' Busby. That seems wrong to me. Any personal thing like this should be respected... I thought it deserved better so I got it, but as I be sentimental I always was thinking it needed a home that  appreciated it more than I would. But not any more...  !!!!

So Thankyou All

------------/-//////

Jamie

when you mentioned The Cameronians I remembered a badge I have, age unknown,that I read up on before... and there was so much about them - History I ! 

anyway-

i didn't appreciate it before then But still do now...

(anyone still awake?).

so-

below is a couple of pics, probably sideways, of said badge....

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 Shall I put these together....?

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thanks everyone.....

tony

 

 

Edited by Farkas

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On 19/07/2017 at 00:18, Farkas said:

 

 

  Shall I put these together....?
 

 

Greetings. Your badge relates to the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, an entirely different regiment, so, ah, best not.

In relation to the  battered busby, I stand to be corrected but  I have never seen reference to a Rifles 'busby' worn by the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

When the regiment was formed from the union of  the 26th Cameronians Regt and the 90th (Perthshire) Light Infantry in 1881, all Rifle regiments were ordered to wear a cloth covered Home Service Helmet in Full Dress. Circa 1890, after much lobbying, "the hideous black helmet" was done away with.   The 2nd pattern  Rifle  'busby' was introduced  for the Rifle Brigade, KRRC and Irish Rifle regiments.   A little later,  the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) adopted  a Rifle green shako instead (based on the 'last model'  shako worn by Line infantry up until 1878.)  As I say, I stand to be corrected, but I have only ever seen pictures of  their buglers wearing  either the Full Dress shako unique to the regiment or the glengarry undress bonnet/ forage cap.

One possibility to be considered relates to the fact that the marriage of the 26th and the 90th in 1881 was something of a 'shotgun' affair,  with the 1st Bn (26th) and the 2nd Bn (90th) doggedly and defiantly  maintaining  their separate identities well into the C20, referring to themselves respectively as The Cameronians and the Scottish Rifles.

The 2nd Battalion embraced their Rifles identity whole-heartedly, having been fitted out  as a light infantry corps when raised in 1793. It may be that for a short period the 2nd Battalion (Scottish Rifles) put their buglers in Rifle caps, when these were introduced circa 1890, before the Regiment adopted the shako for all circa 1892. The 2nd Bn were in India until 1895.. I can't decide whether that makes this scenario more or less likely. The 1st Bn,  meanwhile, were in England until 1894

I have to say, I am not very convinced myself.

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PS. I have been told by a member of the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum that  in 'The History of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)' by John Baynes, there is a photograph of a Bugle Major wearing a  Rifles cap/ 'busby'. We don't as yet know which battalion or have a date for that.

I am intrigued.

 

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8 hours ago, jf42 said:

PS. I have been told by a member of the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum that  in 'The History of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)' by John Baynes, there is a photograph of a Bugle Major wearing a  Rifles cap/ 'busby'. We don't as yet know which battalion or have a date for that.

I am intrigued.

 

 

hi Gents 

thanks for ongoing efforts....

i just found a picture on a Wikipedia page...

 

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Tony 

 

 

Edited by Farkas

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Hi gents

i messaged the Cameronians Museum the other day(night) and got an auto reply.

if I get a further response I will update you.....!

tony

 

Edited by Farkas
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The Cameronians Musuem is not a dedicated  regimental institution  but  part of a municipal set up  organised in Lanarkshire under the umbrella of 'Leisure and culture.' How many of those dealing with its archives and exhibits have personal connection with, or specialist knowledge of the regiment, I couldn't say for sure but it is not likely to be many.  A handful of volunteer enthusiasts at best, given that the regiment disbanded  fifty years ago. A subject as niche as the identification of the bugler's cap may very well tax their resources.

As you can see,  you will have to look elsewhere for information on your man Jacobs.

As a general enquiry, you may have some luck from the National War Museum at Edinburgh Castle. They are very helpful there, even though they won't have specialist knowledge of the Cameronians or be able to help you trace an individual.

Also, bear in mind that it is August and everything will move slowly until after the holidays. Especially in Edinburgh. It's festival time!

 

Good luck.

 

 

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3 hours ago, jf42 said:

The Cameronians Musuem is not a dedicated  regimental institution  but  part of a municipal set up  organised in Lanarkshire under the umbrella of 'Leisure and culture.' How many of those dealing with its archives and exhibits have personal connection with, or specialist knowledge of the regiment, I couldn't say for sure but it is not likely to be many.  A handful of volunteer enthusiasts at best, given that the regiment disbanded  fifty years ago. A subject as niche as the identification of the bugler's cap may very well tax their resources.

As you can see,  you will have to look elsewhere for information on your man Jacobs.

As a general enquiry, you may have some luck from the National War Museum at Edinburgh Castle. They are very helpful there, even though they won't have specialist knowledge of the Cameronians or be able to help you trace an individual.

Also, bear in mind that it is August and everything will move slowly until after the holidays. Especially in Edinburgh. It's festival time!

 

Good luck.

 

 

Hi jf42

Thanks for your info....

to be honest if the great and good on this forum can't 'locate' my man I don't expect anyone else too!

i mailed the museum to offer the busby to them for display...  

i keep see-sawing between the wish to keep it, and, a feeling it's of more note than that and,therefore, maybe deserves displaying somewhere.....,

All my friends think I'm mad but I can't shift the feeling....!

i didn't know of the NWM in Edinburgh- I'll try them next if no reply from these.

fingers crossed

thanks again

tony

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Hi Gents

i get sentimental sometimes.... moment of truth.

As ive said I want to find this a good home.

ive just read this thread through and I can see my struggle! to do what I should.

It's wrong that I'm currently keeping this fella like this....

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amongst some army surplus.!.

-----/---////-------

Bugler Jacobs is in danger of being lost in time. But today I received an e mail to which I have 

 

On 18/07/2017 at 05:26, BlackWatch said:

 

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) have a museum in Low Parks Museum, Hamilton, Lanarkshire. They also may be able to shine a little more light on your object, but I think your fellow forum members have done a splendid job of helping out on this one.

So - I have been mailing/'fishing' for any interest at the all the IWM and the museums you Gents have suggested... to no avail.

 

Until today when I have got an answer....

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So Gents

Tomorrow, I will think, by making this offer i am foolish..,,

I hope by then you Gents might reassure me!!

tony

Edited by Farkas
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As I said previously, the Cameronians no longer  have a dedicated regimental museum operated in the way as, say,  the Black Watch Museum is run. It is part of a wider municipal body, with limited display space, and with storage space that is not infinite either.  The museum will have very limited footfall being somewhat off the beaten track The permanant staff will probably also have duties eleswhere.

It is undoubtedly of niche interest and its battered state means it is less likely to be displayed. Perhaps the best you can do is record and describe the item clearly and  send the museum a file for their archives. You might also let them know where it has gone to, if that is appropriate.
 

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Hi jf42

thanks for your replies all along...

I don't know why having this troubles me so much. But it does. Historically prob the most significant thing I have.

 I've offered this to a Gent who I think, based on his posts, should have it.

A gift in return for its safekeeping....

no answer yet- even to me it sounds like a scam so I understand that....

I hope he wants it.

tony

 

 

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