medalworld Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Hello Gents, Please have a look at this Knight's Badge of the Mecklenburg Schwerin Griffin Order (obv and rev scans at 800dpi). I bought this at OMSA a half dozen or so years ago, but I've just looked closely at it today and compared details to Nimmergut's listing, his no. 1679 in vol. 2. My piece measures 46.5mm high x 43mm wide and weighs 13.7 grams. Nimmergut says Knights are 49mm x 49mm and the weight as 20.2 grams. He seems not to include the pie shaped suspension in his measurements! If his 49mm size is correct, isn't it unusual that a Knight would be larger than the Knight with Crown (his no. 1678) which he quotes as 44mm x 44mm, not including the size of the crown? Other than the size and weight, what bothers me about my piece is the pebbling within the pie shape suspension. It does not actually consist of raised dots as pebbling should be, but rather like irregular, somewhat circular, broken raised lines. If other members who are specialists in German Imperial Orders would have a look and comment, I'd be most appreciative. Many thanks, Frank D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 This is an original knight cross from H. Rose with missing ring. This kind of cross was made between 1884-1908. Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) This is a Knight grade of the Griffin Order given in 1901 to a Dutch officer. They are quite scarce with only a handfull awarded to Dutch recepients. Regards Herman Edited June 5, 2023 by Herman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 Nice medal bar I wander what will be the third Decoration on this bar Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted June 6, 2023 Share Posted June 6, 2023 Assuming it's Etienne de Kruijff, who was awarded the MG3 on 6.3.1901, it should be a Knight of the Orde van de Nederlandse Leeuw, which replaced an earlier-awarded Officer of the Orde van Oranje-Nassau. It appears the Netherlands Lion was returned in 1947, but I can't read Dutch well enough to decipher all the handwritten comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 6, 2023 Share Posted June 6, 2023 (edited) Sorry Dave, it is not de Kruijff. You show two cards of two different E. De Kruijff. Look at the different dates of death. Captain E. De Kruijff awarded with the Griffin order died on June 4th, 1912. I searched all kind of officerslists and identified 15 Dutch officers who got a Knight in the Griffin Order. De Kruijff is one of them, but he died before he received the Officerscross, so no match. After checking the medal entitlement of these 15 officers, 2 remained. The others got more and even much more awards. The 2 remaining officers are: - Colonel E.P.M. Clavareau - Major-General H.Z.A. van de Roemer The missing medal is therefore an Officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau with the swords as both received it. Van de Roemer also received a Knight in the Order of the Dutch Lion, but that was less than 2 months before his death in 1928. I don't think it went in his medalset, of which I couldn't find proof he had one. My guess is Colonel Clavareau as I found a picture of him wearing a set of 3 medals. A blurry picture and the medals are difficult to see, but it is proof he wore them. My money is on him. I add two pictures. The first one is van de Roemer, the second one is the blurry one of Colonel Clavareau. Regards Herman Edited June 7, 2023 by Herman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 The restored set! Regards Herman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 Impressive restoration and lovely looking trio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Here is a set of J.H.F. Dumonceau, retired Dutch Lieutenant-General. He got a Knight of the Greifen order in 1901 and a Knight with Crown in 1909. He used his Knight in this set and added a separate Dutch Crown to imitate his Knight with Crown. Regards Herman 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Very interesting, because his Knight cross was given back in 1909, after he received the knight cross with the crown! Monceau, Joseph Heinrich Felix Graf du born 22.08.1859 Haag, Königlich Niederländischer Premier-Lieutenant und Ordonanzoffizier Ihrer Majestät der Königin Knight cross: 07.02.1901 Knight Cross back in Schwerin: 28.10.1909 Knight cross with the crown: 28.08.1909 Haag, Königlich Niederländischer Hauptmann und Flügeladjutant Ihrer Majestät der Königin Regards Seeheld 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Interesting indeed, as there is another medalset of the same Dumonceau with a correct issued Knight with Crown of the Griffin Order. This set is in the National Military Museum. Regards Herman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Interesting medal bar, what is the missing medal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) The number three medal in the picture in my post of last Friday, aka Weddingmedal 1901 Queen Wilhelmina /Prince Hendrik. This is his medal entitlement (in Dutch): Ridder in de Orde van Oranje-Nassau Grootkruis van de Huisorde van Oranje Bronzen erepenning voor menslievende daden Onderscheidingsteken voor Eervolle Langdurige Dienst als officier XXX Huldigingsmedaille (inhuldiging van Koningin Wilhelmina op 6 sept. 1898) Huwelijksmedaille in zilver (uitgereikt ter herinnering van het huwelijk van H.M. de Koningin) Herinneringsmedaille (uitgereikt ter gelegenheid van het 25-jarig huwelijk van H.M. de Koningin) Draagmedaille (uitgereikt ter herinnering aan het huwelijk van H.K.H. Prinses Juliana en Z.K.H. Prins Bernhard) Ridder van de 4e klasse van de Orde van de Rode Adelaar (Pruisen) Ridder van de 3e klasse van de Orde van St. Anna (Rusland) Ridder 4e klasse van de Orde van de Witte Olifant (Siam) Ridder met kroon van de Orde van de Griffioen (Mecklenburg-Schwerin) Ridder 1e afd. van de Orde van de Witte Valk (Saksen-Weimar-Eisenach) Ridder 1e klasse van de Huisorde en Orde van Verdienste van Hertog Peter Friedrich Ludwig (Oldenburg) Ridder van de Orde van de Wurtembergsche Kroon (Wurtemburg) Ridder in de Orde van Berthold I (Baden) Commandeur van de Orde van Gregorius de Grote (Kerkelijke Staat) Officier van de Kroon-Orde van België Ridder in de Orde van het Legioen van Eer (Frankrijk) Commandeur 2e klasse van de orde van Adolf van Nassau (Luxemburg) Grootkruis van de Orde van de H. Schat (Japan) Grootkruis van de Orde van de Poolster (Zweden) Grootkruis van de St. Olaf Orde (Zweden en Noorwegen) Grootkruis van de Orde van het herstelde Polen (Polonia Restituta) Grootkruis van de Orde van de Dannebrog (Denemarken) Grootkruis in de Orde van de Eikenkroon (Luxemburg) Grootkruis van de Orde van Leopold (België) And his entry in the Dutch Officers list 1940. Edited June 28, 2023 by Herman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolewts58 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) For those who can't read Dutch, I took the liberty of translating the list into English. I think I got most of it right. Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau Grand Cross of the House Order of Orange Bronze medal for charitable deeds Insignia for Honorable Long Service as Officer XXX Tribute Medal (Inauguration of Queen Wilhelmina on September 6, 1898) Silver Marriage Medal (awarded in commemoration of the marriage of H.M. The Queen) Commemorative Medal (awarded on the occasion of the 25th wedding anniversary of H.M. The Queen) Bearer Medal (awarded in memory of the marriage of HRH Princess Juliana and HRH Prince Bernhard) Knight of the 4th Class of the Order of the Red Eagle (Prussia) Knight of the 3rd class of the Order of St. Anna (Russia) Knight 4th Class of the Order of the White Elephant (Siam) Knight with Crown of the Order of the Griffin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin) Knight 1st Class of the Order of the White Falcon (Saxony-Weimar-Eisenach) Knight 1st class of the House Order and Order of Merit of Duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig (Oldenburg) Knight of the Order of the Wurtemberg Crown (Wurtemburg) Knight of the Order of Berthold I (Baden) Commander of the Order of Gregory the Great (Papal State) Officer of the Order of the Crown of Belgium Knight of the Order of the Legion of Honor (France) Commander 2nd Class of the Order of Adolf of Nassau (Luxembourg) Grand Cross of the Order of the Sacred Treasure (Japan) Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star (Sweden) Grand Cross of the St. Olaf Order (Sweden and Norway) Grand Cross of the Order of the Restored Poland (Polonia Restituta) Grand Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog (Denmark) Grand Cross of the Order of the Oak Crown (Luxembourg) Grand Cross of the Order of Leopold (Belgium) Edited June 29, 2023 by bolewts58 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) On 27/06/2023 at 17:55, seeheld said: Very interesting, because his Knight cross was given back in 1909, after he received the knight cross with the crown! Monceau, Joseph Heinrich Felix Graf du born 22.08.1859 Haag, Königlich Niederländischer Premier-Lieutenant und Ordonanzoffizier Ihrer Majestät der Königin Knight cross: 07.02.1901 Knight Cross back in Schwerin: 28.10.1909 Knight cross with the crown: 28.08.1909 Haag, Königlich Niederländischer Hauptmann und Flügeladjutant Ihrer Majestät der Königin Regards Seeheld Seeheld, your answer got me wondering. Were Mecklenburg-Schwerin awards to be returned to the Chancellery upon death of the recipiënt or upon receipt of a higher grade in the same order? Regards Herman Edited June 30, 2023 by Herman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 Herman, According to Mr Ludvigsens outline Paragraph 6.a, pg 9 the order was to be returned upon death or promotion to the next higher order. v/r, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 Thanks Chuck Regards Herman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 21:39, Herman said: Seeheld, your answer got me wondering. Were Mecklenburg-Schwerin awards to be returned to the Chancellery upon death of the recipiënt or upon receipt of a higher grade in the same order? Regards Herman Yes, this was the regulation. Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 And from the end of 1918 this ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 Quoting Mr Ludvigsen awards were returned as late as 1941 by the German recipients. Less so by foreign recipients particularly Russians. Regards Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 The last Order was given back in the 1950s. After 1918 the authorities were not so strikt anymore as before. Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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