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Rusty Greaves

Question about the Order of Ismail/Nishan al-Ismail

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My understanding, at least for the UK (maximum 4 stars can be worn), is senior star at 12 o'clock and then in order of precedence/seniority at 9 o'clock, 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock. However as Fuad is not answerable to any authority he can wear them as he wishes. Farouk's stars are in order of precedence but ideally the Mohammed Ali should have been above the other two stars - but he was king........, Owain

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Gentlemen,

I have been meaning to add these images for a while - I took them when I was last back in UK.

They are of my Order of Ismail,  3rd Class,  by Bichay.  The case outside notes,  'Farouk The First',  and inside the manufacturer is stated as Tewfiq Bichay,  but the name on the reverse of the badge is Fahmy Tewfiq Bichay - the son of Tewfiq Bichay.

Owain

Egypt Ismail Bichay A.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay AA.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay B.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay BB.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay C.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay CC.jpg

Egypt Ismail Bichay CCC.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Most interesting Ismail ribbon in your post 27 example, Owain!  Fahmy probably mentioned to you the difficulty in securing some materials and then importing them into Egypt, especially in 1940-44 and 1953-'59.   He told me that ribbons and fittings like the metal swivels for attaching badges to sashes provided the most difficulty and that his staff developed work-arounds. 

I have maybe two Ismail neck badges with the same type cravat ribbon as yours.  These appear to be of different than usual color hues, slightly narrower widths and tie strings lack the red stripe.   This evidence may lead to establishing a contemporary 'type two' Ismail ribbon variety [as opposed to later 'close enough' ribbon replacements].   To date, I've seen no other ribbon widths in these hues. 

 

The 2nd class neck ribbon in Rusty's post 4 above seems different from both this type and the more usual one.  Perhaps it represents yet another 'material scarcity' substitute or a 'close enough' replacement.

Edited by 922F
spelchek

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Posted (edited)

Owain, many thanks of the wonderful images of this example of the Order of Ismail. It is great to have your documentation of the case labelling and high resolution image of the hallmark of Fahmy Tewfick Bichay (my post of 4 December 2017 has a lower resolution image of this hallmark). I am very interested in 922f's point about shortages of ribbons dyed in appropriate colors, in this case for the 1940-44 period. I'm not sure whether the colors in the picture you reference of the Grand Officer Class that I posted on 13 November, 2017 (6th photo) may represent a similar dye discrepancy. Some other aspects of the blue enamel color and possibly the green of the wreath in this photo make me think there may be a color shift in the image, rather than significant variation in the actual piece as appears with both the blue & red (pink) of the ribbon on the example in Owain's recent contribution of April 5. I have not seen other examples of those color differences in internet images of these awards. Very interesting and important point you make about potential scarcity from a discussion with Fahmy Tewfick Bichay, fascinating! 

I'm including 2 images below from Pinterest boards (identified as Grand Officer Class awards) that are very high resolution and particularly good for providing details on the engraving in the gold ornamentation of the arms of the stars in the blue enameled rays for both the chest star and neck badge. In Owain's example above of the April 5, there is no engraving on this gold ornamentation. The resolution of other internet images I have seen of the Commander Class is not good enough to tell whether other examples may lack that engraving. Several photos of 4th Class (Officer) medals are good enough to show the 3-D engraving of this ornamentation is present on most examples I have seen on the internet. Could this also be a variant because it is a casting by Fahmy Tewfick Bichay and not from from Lattes or Tewfick Bichay, or the time period? The wreath on Owain's Commander badge also shows some differences from other examples; all aspects of the wreath, the gold dots (blossoms or fruit?), and the red bands with gold borders all are less detailed than on other examples by Lattes & Tewfick Bichay. The ball finials at the end of each arm also are flatter and have smaller areas of enamel than seen in other images of the neck badge. The examples in my illustration from 4 December 2017 by Fahmy Tewfick Bichay also appear to show this same lack of detail in these design elements, although the photos are not high resolution. In those photos, the chest star also appears to lack the engraving on the gold ornamentation, as well as some difference in the details of the wreath (and these are identified as Grand Officer regalia). 

Order of Ismail GO Class neck badge.jpg

High resolution image of the neck badge of the Grand Officer Class of the Order of Ismail. This image shows the 3-D details of the engraviging on the gold ornametaion of the arms of the star better than most other photographs I have seen. From Charles Huggins Pinterest board: Flags of the past. (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/298433912792222444/)

Order of Ismail GO class copy.jpg

High resolution image of the chest star of the Grand Officer Class of the Order of Ismail. This image shows the 3-D details of the engraviging on the gold ornametaion of the enameled arms of the star better than most other photographs I have seen. From Worldantiques Antiques Pinterest site The Khedives of Egypt (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368074139698/)

Edited by Rusty Greaves
correct auto-correct

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Posted (edited)

In relation to questions about the order of precedence in wearing orders (see the portrait of Farouk I that I posted here on 13 November, 2017, 11th & final image; and the image of Fuad II posted March 12, as well as Owain's 2 responses of March 12), an Egyptian friend with connections to the royal family provided the following information about wearing medals: 

"The picture of King Fouad II, in front of the late King Farouk is at his home in Switzerland [see image below, picture at upper right & center right-RG]. The breast star of the Order of Mohamed Ali [in the central image below, or that posted on March 12-RG] is in the place of precedence as it is closer in the center of the body and the star of the Order of Ismail is to its left.  Order of precedence of breast stars are on the left side of the body (closer to the heart) and either closer to the axis of the body and to the right of another breast star, or above another breast star. Either position is seen as a superior position to any other insignia of orders. At last that was the protocol in the Middle East.  A peculiarity to Middle Eastern Orders is that the star of a Grand Officer (second class) is a smaller version, but similar design to the star of a Grand Cordon and is worn on the right side of the chest as opposed to the left, which is the custom in western protocols. In your language the 9 o'clock position (for breast stars of Grand Cordons is an place of superiority, equivalent to the 12, if the 12 is not occupied (as in the case of King Fouad II and his late father, King Farouk)." He also note that: "...the King wore his Cordon of the Order of Mohamed Ali on the wrong shoulder, at HRH Prince Mohamed Ali's wedding!  [below, center image on left-RG] Not sure who advised him to do that."
 
So in the portrait of Farouk I, the Grand Cordon Order of Muhammed Ali in the upper left position is the position of precedence,  the Order of Ismail is second, and the Order of the Nile third (with no medal occupying the 12:00 o'clock position). In the portrait of Fuad II, the order of Muhammed Ali is taking the 12:00 o'clock position as an alternative position of precedence to the 9:00 o'clock position

26186865_133669410767519_587423823830188032_n.jpg

Photo montage images of Fuad II by ROYAL WORLD THAILAND (@royalworldthailand) commemorating 16 January, 2018 – the "66th Birthday Anniversary of His Majesty King Fuad II of Egypt; the only son of King Farouk I. He succeeded the throne of the Muhammad-Ali Dynasty after his father’s forced abdication. Fuad became the King for almost 1 year, and he was about a year old. The monarchy was officially abolished and declared the Republic in 1953". (https://instarix.com/p/1693358436737010408_3629956815#)

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Posted (edited)

In relation to the recent manufacture of the Order of Ismail by the firm ELM out of Singapore (http://elm.com.sg/fr/orders-decorations-medals/orders-decorations/) that is probably still manufacturing the Order of Ismail. 922F points out on in this thread on 5 December, 2017 that these awards are probably presented through Fuad II. 922F also wrote on July 9, 2007:

"Egypt's President formerly was (and still may be) chief, formerly Grand Master, of all Egyptian Orders and some decorations, thus explaining Mubarak's Egyptian awards. As long-time head of state, he also holds many foreign decorations. 

An Egyptian Crown Council affiliated with exiled King Fuad [Fu'ād] II administers his dynastic Muhamed Ali and Ismail Orders; occaisional awards still occur. An Egyptian source reports that Fuad authorized the Crown Council to re-institute the Royal Order of the Nile in the mid-late 1990s. One of Farouk's supposed "love-children" distributes an "Order of the Egyptian Crown" for a fee.. "

-from the thread "ARAB MEDALS -- Egypt" started by Ed_Haynes on January 12, 2007) here in the Middle East & Arab States section. 
 
My Egyptian friend provided some additional detail about this: "I am not aware that King Fouad II is awarding any orders or decorations. He has awarded very few with the rank and title of Pasha, but this is not common knowledge.  He likes to keep it hush hush. However, I am not aware of any other honors that he has invested people with or awarded them. There is no Egyptian Crown Council whatsoever.  The order of the crown, along with another award or two (in the form of breast stars) are nothing official. I think that may have been established by the Mohamed Ali Foundation, which is run by a junior prince and cousin of the King, but it is not recognized by the King." 
 
ELM Order of Ismail advert.jpg
 
 
 

 

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Posted (edited)

Rusty,

The 'royal household' informs me that not only does King Faud II award both the Mohammed Ali and Ismail Orders but that HM instituted a new one class award for royal ladies called the Nishan el Noor [Order of Light] in 2017.  An article published in JOMSA [Volume 68, Number 5--SEPTEMBER - OCTOBER 2017--pp. 43-44] details this new creation.  Image below, copyright WORTH & used with that firm’s express permission for this note only, illustrates the insignia.  To date, bestowals of all honors seem limited to family members, other royals and very close family collaborators. Further, a project for reinvigorating the Faud I Collar decoration may be underway.   


Implementing an Egyptian Crown Council concept [patterned on Ethiopian and Serbian models] apparently failed around late 2007-early 2008.  


As to the supposed Order touted by 'Crown Princess Laila Farouk and Grand Duke Lev Leznik' [out of Australia?] identified as the Farouk Family Order aka Egyptian Order of the Crown, an image of their star as manufactured follows below.   A ‘Laila Farouk’ webpage explained her assertions to regal powers [including salacious details regarding her parentage and legitimation] but I cannot locate it at present.   It seems that 4-7 years ago another Order styled the Royal Egyptian Order of the Crown with insignia based on the Nile Order--no image as yet--emerged.  This may be the same as the Mohamed Ali Foundation award?  Design elements include a five point white enamel star superimposed on a silver plaque.   It may have a blue and yellow or blue and white ribbon.  
 

0428_mail.jpg

thumbnail_Faruok3.jpg

Edited by 922F
spelchek

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Posted (edited)

922F, many thanks for this information, the JOMSA reference, and the photos! I wasn't doubting your information, just checking what someone else had told me about this question. You obviously are more aware of the situation in relation to the exiled royals' role in continued award of orders, as well as being a dedicated phalerstics enthusiast. I was interested in the JOMSA article, and can see the resemblance to Nishan el Kamal elements, although I think the Order of the Virtues has a much more elegant & beautiful set of designs. 

Here is a higher resolution image of the Farouk Family Order/Egyptian Order of the Crown:

the-star-of-the-imperial-and-royal-house-faruk-of-egypt.jpg

Higher resolution image of what is called the "Star of the Imperial and Royal House of Farouk of Egypt" on the Royal Egypt blogspot http://petersroyalegypt.blogspot.com; higher resolution image from: https://petercrawford1947.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/royal-egypt/the-star-of-the-imperial-and-royal-house-faruk-of-egypt/

What do you know about an item identified as a diamonded "Honor Badge of the Egyptian Dynasty"? This image below is from Sixbid.com/LA Galerie Numismatique (https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=3427&category=71681&lot=2842249).

Diamonded Honor Badge of the Egyptian Dynasty.jpg     From an April 19-21, 2017 auction (Session1, Lot 719). The description for this states: "engraved and dark-toned medallion with golden monogram "Sultan Mohammed 1333"... 51 X 25 mm, gold, with an outer circlet set with brilliants, ornamented suspension loop, surmounted by the royal crown of Egypt, also set with brilliants, bar, with reverse pin. A most rare Court decoration of Egypt...Provenance: the Royal Family of Egypt." 

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Posted (edited)

Here is an image of Ahmed Hassanein Pasha, Chief of the Diwan and Chamberlain to King Farouk I, wearing the Order of Ismail. He is obviously violating the convention that Owain mentions of limiting the medals worn on any occasion to 4 on his March 12, 2018 post in this thread discussing precedence in how they are worn. Although Owain states that is a UK practice, it seems that Egyptian royalty at least did often adhere to displaying a limited set of medals for official appearances or portraits. In contrast, Ahmed Hussanein Pasha is sporting at least 10 medals, in addition to a sash with badge (which appears to be the Egyptian Order of Muhammed Ali), and at least 8 smaller medals. The Order of Ismail is prominently visible in a comparable position to that shown in the official portrait photo of Farouk I on 13 November, 2017 in this thread and in the birthday photo of Fouad II posted here on 12 March and on 22 April, 2018. 

Ahmned Hassanein pasha 2.jpg

Photo of Ahmed Hassanein Pasha (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Ahmad_Hasnein.jpg)

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Posted (edited)

A nice high resolution image of the Grand Cordon Class of the Order of Ismail from Künker Münzauktionen und Goldhandel showing both obverse & reverse in one graphic. Hallmark of Tewfik Bichay (https://www.kuenker.de/en/archiv/stueck/58396)

 

01512q00.jpg

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Here are 2 additional images of the 4th Class, Officer, chest badge from an Italian heraldry site & forum (I Nostri Avi), http://iagiforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10120&start=0 that probably come originally from liverpoolmedals.com. They are not high resolution images, but complement some of the Officer breast badge photos illustrated on this thread, i.e.,  in my post of 13 November, 2017 (where I incorrectly identified it as a neck badge under the photo from Kelisi on flickr);  Egyptian Zogist's post of 14, November 2017 from the magazine that sourced its information from reference: "Royal Protocols, Abdine Palace, 1952";  my post of 15 November, 2017 of an example made by Tewfick Bichay from a photo on flickr; & my post of 7 December, 2017 of 2 good resolution images from la_gallerie_numismatique.com.

ismail2.jpg.3a6c0406bc795fd48e364c4a2a1603ed.jpgismail.jpg.b4ef9b7e25b86a4272b2b794bf781b68.jpg

Most of the discussion on this particular page of iagiforum concerns the Order of the Nile, and some presentation of hallmarks. One contributor posted the following table of silver hallmarks shown below. I would be interested in comments on the accuracy and utility of this chart by the learned experts here at GMIC. Additionally, I would like to educate myself more about the gold hallmarks, especially of the Kingdom of Egypt period and referent to my interest in the Order of Ismail. The best images of these hallmarks I've seen (for the Order of Ismail) come from various listings of auctions by eMedals.com. I will post some of these hallmark photos in the near future. Can anyone help me in this endeavor? 

4190577772_35cb680c74_o.thumb.png.29b18f4faadac020fcd29157f5970e07.png

Egyptian silver hallmarks identified by a contributor to Italian heraldry site & forum (I Nostri Avi), http://iagiforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10120&start=0 

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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Here are 2 images of Ahmed Hassanein Pasha, Chief of the Diwan and Chamberlain to King Farouk I wearing the Order of Ismail that are higher resolution than the portrait I posted on 30 April, 2018. The portrait is from a current eBay auction that includes this original matted print (39 X 29 cm) from the Jean Weinberg studio in Cairo (https://www.ebay.com/itm/EGYPT-OLD-VINTAGE-PHOTOGRAPH-Ahmed-Pasha-Hassanein-with-medals-and-sword/273338376524?hash=item3fa43ca14c:g:qg4AAOSwc~xbGXUM). the same eBay seller also is offering a version from the same studio https://www.ebay.com/itm/EGYPT-OLD-VINTAGE-PHOTOGRAPH-Ahmed-Pasha-Hassanein-with-medals-and-sword-LOT-2/273364004398?hash=item3fa5c3ae2e:g:G0EAAOSwVW5bUKQj that is cropped from Hassanein's left arm ( 21 X 16 cm). The close up of Ahmed Hassanein Pasha's chest provides a better view of the Order of Ismail and the many other medals he sports.

My wife's great grandfather, Pierre Crabitès (who as I've mentioned in this thread was awarded the Order of Ismail, Grand Officer Class, probably at his retirement from the Mixed Tribunals of Egypt in 1936), had some correspondence with Ahmed Hassanein Pasha in his role as Chief of the Diwan and Chamberlain to the King. Hussanein conveyed King Farouk I's enthusiasm for Crabitès' impending return to Cairo in 1942. Crabitès retired from his judgeship on the Mixed Courts in Cairo (the District Courts) in 1936 because the British had blocked his advancement to the Court of Appeals due to his Egyptian royalist sympathies. Back in the US, he eventually managed to get an assignment from the OSS to return to Egypt in January 1942, and went to Cairo that May. Immediately, the British started to block his assignment in Egypt, again because of his friendliness with King Farouk I. The OSS acceded to their wishes and cancelled his position, despite the reason they accepted Crabitès was they wanted his closeness with King Farouk I to help get information about how the King was disposed toward the Allies. Initially Crabitès made contact with Hassanein, the Chief of the Royal Cabinet, and it was clear Farouk was happy to have Judge Crabitès in Cairo. Hassanein conveyed the King’s belief that: "He has long felt the need of having the counsel of a foreigner of his father’s generation who knows Egypt and who has no ulterior motive to subserve. There is no telling what blessing to Egypt, to the Allied cause and to a heal thy understanding with England may not flow from your presence here." (State Department Document: 123 Crabitès, Pierre/7: Communiqué from Pierre Crabitès,transmitted by Alexander Kirk, Cairo, to Colonel Donovan, through the Secretary of State, 28 May 1942). Crabitès was sent back to the US for a while, then was tentatively given an appointment to Beirut, which the British eventually blocked as well. He returned to Egypt in June 1943 for his re-assignment to Baghdad, where he arrived in July. Crabitès died there in October 1943, from complications of lung infections he got shortly after returning to Egypt in May 1942.

288639595_s-l1600-7cropped.thumb.jpg.6efc013a5691cf3e5d3f6314ac8214b7.jpg

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.8d76f2afd4f090fae3c7d8986a7c0e09.jpg

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Stunning stuff!  Thank you, gentlemen, for sharing with the rest of us in the course of your learned discussion.

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Here are two images showing the obverse (L) and reverse (R) of a miniature of the Egyptian Order of Ismail from the Worthpoint.com website, that identifies this as sold on eBay in 2014. This miniature medal is based on the design of the sash badge of the Grand Cordon (1st) Class, the neck star of the Grand Officer (2nd) Class (in addition to the chest badge), and the neck star of Commander (3rd) Class) of the Order of Ismail. The form of this mini resembles one example I illustrated on 6 December, 2017 in this thread (first photo, the left hand mini), although that example is gilt in gold rather than silver. I also illustrated a somewhat similar piece in the 3rd photo posted here on 6 December, 2017 that is identified as a 3rd Class (Commander) version shown as a neck badge (but not necessarily a miniature) and is currently available through the faleris-et-orbis.com website. An additional piece with this form that is identified as an inexpensive miniature is shown in the 4th photo on 6 December, 2017. The miniature medal illustrated below is described as a "contemporary miniature" and is 18 mm tall (including the crown suspension) by 11 mm wide and is identified as silver. I have seen very few miniatures of the Order of Ismail, and the best executed examples are in the form used for the chest badge of the Grand Cordon, Grand Officer, and Officer Classes (see my illustrations in this thread on 5 & 6 December, 2017; and in my post of 11 December, 2017 on the thread "Miniatures of the Middle East & Arab World" here in the "Middle East & Arab States" section started by Owain on 6 December, 2017; and in Owain's  illustrations from 11 & 12 December, 2017 on the thread "Miniatures of the Middle East & Arab World" [obverse shown in the top row on 11 December, 2nd from R; reverse shown on 12 December in the same position]).). The galon of silver with the rosette suggests this is the 3rd Class of this award (Commander). However, possibly because of a lack of good illustrations of miniatures for each of the different class of the Order of Ismail, it is unclear to me what the form of many of the the miniatures would be. On the full-sized awards, the rosette is apparently only worn with the Officer (4th) Class, and the Officer's chest medal is in the form of the chest badge of the superior classes (not this form). I have not seen a galon on any of the few miniature examples I've come across, but again, the lack of complete illustrations of minis of the different classes of the Order of Ismail may be the reason for not having seen this configuration before. The Commander wears a neck star on a ribbon as the full-sized award that is similar to this medal's form, but no chest badge is part of the full-sized regalia. Perhaps this form with galon and rosette might distinguish the 2nd class mini from the 3rd class mini, if this neck star design was also employed as a miniature for the Grand Officer Class.  (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/egypt-order-ismail-nishan-al-ismail-538036727)

1_8c1e83e32950238ab0f6385b22f31902-1.jpg.81746fb57f6f308f42e98b243e28af21.jpgegypt-order-ismail-nishan-al-ismail_1_8c1e83e32950238ab0f6385b22f31902.jpg.8ea762cd885c5c524032b55de11e4b13.jpg

 

Edited by Rusty Greaves

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