medalworld Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Hello All, I recently acquired this Commander set in a case and request some help please with an accurate attribution if anyone knows for sure. It was purportedly a Portuguese "Order". It is large, 90mm to top of globe suspension x 40 mm wide, the cross with the same form as an Order of Christ, but in green. It is quite well made of gilt silver. The suspension is an armillary globe, thus it's likely something geographic, perhaps an Order of Geographic Merit from a learned society? Consists of a neck badge as shown in the photo, with Commander lapel rosette-pin with two gold wings, plus a handsome little miniature and a ribbon bar all in a Cravanzola, Roma, green case of issue with gold imprint of the Order arms on top. I'd say vintage is ca.1940s, +/- a few years. Can anyone help with an identification please? Many thanks, Frank Draskovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper_D Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 9 hours ago, medalworld said: all in a Cravanzola, Roma, green case of issue with gold imprint of the Order arms on top. May we see a photo of the Order's arms, please, as this may give the heraldically-minded a clue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalworld Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 This is the gilt imprint on the top of the green Cravanzola case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Frank. It is very similar to the order of Aviz, including the ribbon. Given Aviz is a military award could it be awarde to military explorers? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quivivefrance Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) Hello everyone, Yes I have the same commander, Cravanzola also. All the orders I have seen so far were at grade and of the same manufacture. The cross of the order of Christ and the armilar sphere are the traditional symbols of Portugal, but also of Brazil. I never found this order in Portugal, but in Italy and Brazil. I think it is an ephemeral order, similar to that of the Concorde, with its same distribution, in Italy and Brazil (the Italian community is well represented). Italy was very prolix in these ephemeral orders in the immediate aftermath of the war, often a simple declaration at a notary allowed to create a new order of nobility or hereditary. Only the discovery of a diploma will allow us to put a name on this unknown order. Jérôme. Edited March 28, 2018 by quivivefrance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalworld Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 6 hours ago, paul wood said: Frank. It is very similar to the order of Aviz, including the ribbon. Given Aviz is a military award could it be awarde to military explorers? Paul Hello Paul, Nice to hear from you. I hope all is well. It's a handsome and well made insignia with the pierced globe and crossed batons with little globes at the ends. Wouldn't it be nice if we could name it ourselves? I'd agree with the "Order of Military Exploration", sounds terrific! But our pal quivivfrance has offered another scenario. He could be right, but we still need a firm attribution. Maybe someone will have a document or receipt for one? Best Wishes, Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalworld Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 hours ago, quivivefrance said: Hello everyone, Yes I have the same commander, Cravanzola also. All the orders I have seen so far were at grade and of the same manufacture. The cross of the order of Christ and the armilar sphere are the traditional symbols of Portugal, but also of Brazil. I never found this order in Portugal, but in Italy and Brazil. I think it is an ephemeral order, similar to that of the Concorde, with its same distribution, in Italy and Brazil (the Italian community is well represented). Italy was very prolix in these ephemeral orders in the immediate aftermath of the war, often a simple declaration at a notary allowed to create a new order of nobility or hereditary. Only the discovery of a diploma will allow us to put a name on this unknown order. Jérôme. Hello Jerome, Nice to "meet" you. Many thanks for your comments. You are correct, unless someone comes up with a solid attribution, or a document with the insignia, we can only guess at it's origin and name. Speaking of names, you mention Concorde. I don't know it, so I checked the "Self-Styled Orders" index in Burke's, but can't find it there either. What is it please? Regarding accompanying documents with unknown insignia, I just started another unknown inquiry under Italy. That medal had a transmittal letter in the box, but it does not mention the name of the "Order" ! Please have a look there. Frank D. Frank D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quivivefrance Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Hello Frank it's a order of Concordia in english or italian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalworld Posted June 11, 2019 Author Share Posted June 11, 2019 Hello Jerome, In re-reading this post , I just now realized that I forgot to thank you for the nice photo of the Concordia. Please accept my apology for this very late Thank You ! Frank P.S. A few days ago, I came upon our handsome "Unknown Green Order" that we were chatting about last year. It's such an interesting and well made piece. I hope we will learn its name and origin someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micke Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 Hello everyone I think the name of the order are Portugal. Order of St. Bento d'Aviz. Commander's Cross. I found it onSpink webpage. https://www.spink.com/lot/339001124 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 While it has some resemblance to the Order of Aviz it most definitely is not, auction houses, mine included, do not always get it right. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 I can't add anything definitive to this discussion, but in researching other Brazilian awards, this one is often connected to the Geographical Society of Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Given the suspension it's something along those lines. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Lang Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I can only add, to this interesting discussion, that after the closing of the shop of Cravanzola-Gardino in via del Corso, Rome, many sets of the various classes of this order appeared on the market, coming from the depot of the firm. At the "Militalia" show in Milan, a dealer had some commander's sets and a grand cross set with sash. In my opinion, it is an ephemeral order, "instituted" by some of the "pretendants" to the portuguese throne, whose families flourished in Italy (and legally battled against each other), since shortly after WW2. All the best, Enzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heusy68 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 On 11/10/2019 at 09:36, Micke said: Hello everyone I think the name of the order are Portugal. Order of St. Bento d'Aviz. Commander's Cross. I found it onSpink webpage. https://www.spink.com/lot/339001124 Hello Micke, Do not always believe auction house, especially Spink New York ( Spink London Ok, but NY ought gosh ). So they will write what they might consider "believable". I do remember an auction in October 1996 by Jean-Pierre Stella in Paris, where there was such a cross, the identification was (if my memory is good) : Brazil Order of Geographic Merit. I still have that catalogue, sure for end of this week, I might scan and post. Of course it would be the opinion of one expert ( JP Stella ), against other, but the reputation, and the huge amount of knowledge he has might put the balance in his favor. For those who never heard of him, Jean-Pierre Stella was starting his life in Orders & Medals selling in the mid 1960ies in a shop in St Ouen (outskirt of Paris, just the other side of the Peripherique Boulevard). He later move to a shop Quai de la Tournelle (opposite bank of the Seine to Notre Dame). He stopped business there in December 2016. But he's still well and active, now he live in South of France. For those who were in the business in the 60ies, 70ies and 80ies, getting information was ever challenging. Keep in mind that on these years people were writing a lot of letters to Embassies, Manufacturer, Minister, to enquires about elusive insignia, often without reply, sometimes with luck. I did that too !!! In those years, manufacturers (I mean the original manufacturer were still alive, end some of them keen to share their knowledge). Regards. Emmanuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Emmanuel, I remember Stella very well (and I am not talking of the Artois branch of the family). The attribution he gave is not unreasonable. I think it is a geographical society award but without portuguese governmental authority. But Portugal is awash with various private awards. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heusy68 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) Hello Paul, I know you have a very sharp memory. I will later in the Week post the scan of the catalogue of JP Stella. If I remember, his words, in the catalogue were : Brésil Mérite Géographique (in french). He never stated that it was a governemental award. What wrote Enzo (Elmar) is also very important. I know him in real life, and his knowledge in phaleristic is huge, he also has a sharp memory. Having been to Roma in June 2018, I sadly witnessed that Cravanzola is not any more Via del Corso, but I knew from past visit in their shop from 1997 to 2010 that they were still keeping some medium size stock of unsold material (I bought many ribbons from them). So when Enzo state that some of these crosses surfaced in Militalia Fair in Milano, it's important. Also true that there is a huge italian Community living in Brazil. And not only in Brazil, but in Buenos Aires (Argentina), and in Panama. It's fun to know, that the Company that supply the Government of Panama for their National Orders, order them from a company in Firenze ( Florence in Italy ). Not a surprise to know that the owner of that panamean company is of italian roots. I also agree with you, that Portugal, and Brazil have a lot of private Awards. Jérôme (QuiviveFrance) knows very well the brazilian market. Regards Emmanuel Edited November 11, 2019 by heusy68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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