Korean war DFC for B-29 Gunner

[scottplen]

 unit engraved DFC for shooting down of MI 15 on bombing mission on Apr 12 1951

[Egorka]

Interesting.

Though there were no MIG-15 lost on 12 April 1951. The closest losses were on 9 and 22 of April 1951. Both downed by F-86. 

[scottplen]

3 were shot down April 12 1951 gunners of  30th bomb sqr 19th BG in B29s I have His GO for his air medal stating April 12 for shooting down MIG 15 ! MIGs shot down many bombers not sure exact number ? 

34 migs lost to Gunners in KW from what I can find . Lots of misinformation Soviet reports say no losses US  list multiple shoot downs  ? 

Edited July 5, 2018 by scottplen

[scottplen]

Here he is listed in Aerial  victories of the jet age .

his GO reads

GO #190 HQ FEAF 29 apr 1951 

Sgt  RAV 30th BS 19th BG is officially credited with destruction of one enemy MI15 type aircraft in aerial combat near Sinuiju North Korea ,at 10101 on 12 Apr 1951 Sgt V Was a right gunner on B29 flying in formation at 17000 feet. Enemy aircraft was passing under B29 at 3 o’clock  low  and when it was 500 yards away Sgt V fired one long burst and a flash of fire and smoke was observed to come from enemy aircraft. When last seen enemy aircraft was last seen spinning out of control and on fire .

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by scottplen

[Egorka]

Hello,

Before we can assess the situation with those 3 particular MIG-15 kills by aerial gunners mentioned in the document above, let’s see the total KW stats. Having benefit of passed time we can look back. Let’s see how many MIG-15 were claimed by ASAF and then how many were lost by the Soviets (64 air corps). 

Claims: According tho the page 20 of USAF stat digest 1953, there were claimed 823 MIGs in air-to-air during the whole war. Plus 145 probable, which we can disregard for now. Link: http://media.defense.gov/2011/Apr/05/2001329931/-1/-1/0/AFD-110405-030.pdf

Soviet reports:  The total losses of MIG-15 during the whole KW amounted to app. 335 MIGs. The data comes from 64 air corps reports, which is presented in the book “Red Devils Over the Yalu: A Chronicle of Soviet Aerial Operations in the Korean War 1950-53” by Igor Seidov. 

See, this overall stat alone means that there got to be overclaim, which is not unusual at all on any side. I read and translate Soviet WW2 citations and perfectly aware of this fenomena.

Regarding these 3 claims on 12 April 1951, which is known as “ black Thursday”, I can repeat, that ZERO MIGs were lost beteen 9 and 22 of April. Now, a number of MIGs were indeed damaged, but not lost. But the citation from 19 bomber groups states clearly, that all three claimed MIGs crushed in flames. 

None the less, very interesting action, award and the veteran!!!

Edited July 8, 2018 by Egorka

[Egorka]

And the page for ISAF air-to-air claims:

[scottplen]

The  fog of war I guess ? I guess both sides over exaggerate their kills ?  There is so much info proving both sides wrong ?? Who knows? 

Edited July 8, 2018 by scottplen

[scottplen]

I have read some of these us reports and I assume Soviet reports only deal with Soviet flown migs ? China and N Korea flew also April 12 1951 I’m assuming no Soviet flown plane were lost wonder what the numbers on the others ? Also were any Soviet pilots KIA in all Korea  can’t find info on net  ?   Cold War propaganda on both sides seem to fog the true numbers of kills with over estimated and underestimated of losses ! Regardless if he shot down a mig or damaged one it a great DFC I’m proud to own !

i found online 34 mig type crafts shot down by B29s in KW ? 

In the big picture numbers don’t matter ! Both sides lost so many !

Edited July 8, 2018 by scottplen

[Egorka]

Hello,

From what I know the overall MIG-15  and pilot losses of the Reds were: 

• Soviets (64 air corps): 335 MIGs and 120 pilots killed (almost complete name and circumstance list exists).
• Chinese and North Coreans: 231 MIGs and 126 pilots killed.

So the total of MIGa downed were 566 MIGs. Closer to the claimed 823, but still short of it. 

The point, that the gunners of the 19 Bomb Group could had shot either a Chinese or a N.Corean MIG is a good one, but I am not sure it's valid. From what I can see, on the 12 April, 1951, only the Soviet flew MIGs in that known interception mission. I am not 100% sure though. But so far all the account I have seen say so. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Egorka