Bilco Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Hi Gents, I'm obviously a bit slow after the Christmas excesses - that picture of the Official Type 2 I mentioned in my last post is from Laslo! I thought I'd found something new on the sammler.ru site. But has anyone got a photo of the Official Type 2 in colour, or another example? Is the strange flattening of the top of the ball suspension a one-off on the example Laslo saw, or is it on all these medals? Indeed, is the one Laslo saw a one-off that someone had gilded and polished for their own personal bit of bling? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hello, There are two markings that can be found for a medal "January-Berchot". You will notice that the size of the marking is different. Regards Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hello, Two medals including the ball is different. The right is en copper. I present to you my various Belgian medals, none is identical and I miss a model uniface silver with marking "boar". Regards Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hi Jean-Michel, An impressive collection. Am I right in thinking you don't have the Official Type 2? There doesn't seem to be a particularly shiny one amongst them. My Janvier-Berchot has the larger BRONZE. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 hi bill, I think I have the model N°2, looking good and my medals with a magnifying glass, we see that the model with the suspension of copper would be N°2. If I spend my medal with a deoxidizer it will shine, I'm almost certain. I think the model less easy to find is"CHOBILLON" where the label "MADE IN FRANCE". I can not seem to find these model and the uniface silver model. It would be nice that Rob gives his opinion. Regards Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Many thanks Jean-Michel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 This one "MAY" have had the ball suspension filed down to aid it fitting into a glass covered frame. MHO http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-rare-Belgium-WWI-Victory-medal-unofficial-variation-/251209848385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7d461641 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Hi Jim, There is a photo of a very similar Belgian vic on the sammler.ru site with the link in post #41 on page 3 of this thread. The Google translation is here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsammler.ru%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D115165%26st%3D0%26%23entry1388950 No Paul Dubois and the strange flattened back to the rather square suspension. Bill Edited January 6, 2013 by Bilco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Happy New Year to you Bill and to All other members. Bill, I saw this photo before but I also noted the tool or file marks on the back of the half ball and rim of this medal. The first question I have to ask myself is why would someone make such a thin suspension? Second, why is there no tool marks on the front half of the ball? If you look very close at the suspension ball on the reverse side or the flat side of the medal you exampled, you will see that the hole was drill so close to the side wall that the metal is almost lettings go because of the thinness of the metal left behind after the drilling. This is very common when you start with a large object then you start filing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hello all, Here are a few degrees Belgians. Regard Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hi Jim, Yes, the sammler.ru suspension is odd. There is a close-up shot of it: It looks like the suspension lug (it's too odd a shape to call a ball) is part of the planchet rather than soldered or welded on, and there is a lip on the top edge of it that must have been made after the filing was done. So, I wondering if the sequence of making it was: 1. make the blank with suspension lug 2. file the suspension lug flat on the back 3. put the blank in the die and strike the medal, producing the lip on the top edge of the lug 4. drill the hole through the lug - too close to the back, so raising the bump across the lug The medal on eBay also seems to have the suspension lug integral with the planchet - indeed, there seems to be a plinth under the lug, much as the British Type 2 has. The lug was either made much more square than the sammler.ru one or filed to that shape. It's a shame we don't know if there are any markings on the edge of these 2 medals. I can't see 'LA' or 'R' marks on them either, and there is no PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse. There doesn't seem to be a suspension like these in Jean-Michel's collection or anything like it in Laslo so the question is - what are they? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 To me it is hard to modify a medal without it being too obvious to most collectors. That is why I believe you see different suspension a more likely way to make something look a little rarer. And, since we do not know how it came to be, I look at it with caution and ask "why not a simple ball suspension" as it is easier to make that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambert Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Hello Bill, Jim, Jean Happy new year! I saw, I think it is strange medals "rare" this kind of "defect". , There seems to be a series production, but modified by some individual .. That ha become so rare? I think not. I think, that the price and value for this example. I still have as a reference, the type described by sr. Laslo. Lambert "An original piece is not for what it is but by what it is not ..." Edited January 7, 2013 by lambert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hi all, The suspension of this model is not welded like the English model. There are no inscriptions. For cons, I am of the opinion that LAMBERT is a model that was produced in series and certainly Czchoslovakia. I have not yet in my collection! Regard Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peron Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Here is one of my other Belgian VM in original case, but one strange thing is that I can't find any makers mark??????Nothing!!!!!!!!!!How may I classify this one? Edited January 7, 2013 by peron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peron Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) And also a brevet of the Belgian Vic atribued to seargent Henry Juvent M 13 of the 3ème régiment de ligne signed of 10 August 1919. Edited January 7, 2013 by peron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Hello Peron, Your diploma is interesting because the grant date is of 19 August 1919 and the Decree of 14 July 1919. Similarly, I do not know him what type of degree. I think Belgium as France has a variety of forms of degree. However, in France there is a regulatory model, the others are not regulatory. By cons, is there a regulatory model delivering for Belgium? What Says the decree? Regard Jean-Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peron Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Hello Peron, Your diploma is interesting because the grant date is of 19 August 1919 and the Decree of 14 July 1919. Similarly, I do not know him what type of degree. I think Belgium as France has a variety of forms of degree. However, in France there is a regulatory model, the others are not regulatory. By cons, is there a regulatory model delivering for Belgium? What Says the decree? Regard Jean-Michel Here is a close up of the text in the brevet...& what about my medal in post#72? the absence of any marks? Is there any variant without any markings?anyone???? Edited January 10, 2013 by peron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hi Peron, Your medal appears to have PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse so, if there is no LA or R anywhere, nor any markings on the edge, I'd say it is an Official Type 1 - especially as it comes from a supplier in Brussels. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peron Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hi Peron, Your medal appears to have PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse so, if there is no LA or R anywhere, nor any markings on the edge, I'd say it is an Official Type 1 - especially as it comes from a supplier in Brussels. Bill My medal only has the Paul Dubois signature, I look everywere and cannot found any other markings...do anyone knows the supllier on the label box???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver860 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hi Jim, Yes, the sammler.ru suspension is odd. There is a close-up shot of it: It looks like the suspension lug (it's too odd a shape to call a ball) is part of the planchet rather than soldered or welded on, and there is a lip on the top edge of it that must have been made after the filing was done. So, I wondering if the sequence of making it was: 1. make the blank with suspension lug 2. file the suspension lug flat on the back 3. put the blank in the die and strike the medal, producing the lip on the top edge of the lug 4. drill the hole through the lug - too close to the back, so raising the bump across the lug The medal on eBay also seems to have the suspension lug integral with the planchet - indeed, there seems to be a plinth under the lug, much as the British Type 2 has. The lug was either made much more square than the sammler.ru one or filed to that shape. It's a shame we don't know if there are any markings on the edge of these 2 medals. I can't see 'LA' or 'R' marks on them either, and there is no PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse. There doesn't seem to be a suspension like these in Jean-Michel's collection or anything like it in Laslo so the question is - what are they? Bill This medal is mine. No inscriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hi Oliver, Many thanks for the response about this very interesting medal. What are your feelings about it - is it an altered Official Type 1 or does the suspension look original? Do you have any ideas about where it came from? Maybe you could let us know the diameter and thickness of the planchet to compare with other versions? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver860 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hi Bill! This is not an official type 1. Suspension look original None PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse. On the reverse there is no «LA» and «R». Diameter 36.8 mm, thickness 2.7 mm. Czech tape. oliver860 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver860 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I think the Czech version! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver860 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hello, There are two markings that can be found for a medal "January-Berchot". You will notice that the size of the marking is different. Regards Jean-Michel Hi! Why marking "January-Berchot"? And I think the Belgian medals marking - a triangle and the letter «AC» (Establissements Adrean Chobillon) oliver860 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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