What exactly is a Beamter ?

[mravery]

Hey Guys,

Here is a quick question....

What exactly is a beamten ?

I know that I usually see the word 'official'... or paymaster' when someone says beamten... but what exactly would constitute an 'official' (i.e. paymaster would be one type.. but what about others ?)

Cheers

Mark

[Stogieman]

Door opener, supply masters, chief bottle washer (apologies to Adam ;>)). Flunkies, et. al.

[Chris Boonzaier]

More like a Govt official.

Taxmen, Policemen, teachers, etc. basically anyone working for the Govt.

[Paul R]

How to word this...

If my memory serves me correctly(I am at work at the time without my books), they are basically civilians with special skills(accountants, pharmacists, farriers, civil engineers, map makers, etc) who are bought into military service with either Feldwebel ranking or officer ranking(ranking/pay grade is dependant on level of education).

They have special ranking insiginia.

Despite their ranking and privilges, they will not be placed in any command positions. They are brought in to perform work related to their special skills.

They are not Civil servants. The are active duty members of the military branch in which they are inducted.

[David Gregory]

Mark,

In the generally accepted sense, a Beamter is a public or civil servant.

For the purposes of militaria collectors, it would equate to just about anyone who is essentially a civilian, but attached to or working direct for the military and therefore wearing uniform.

David

[Paul R]

Hi David,

My understanding is that they were not civil servants...

My idea of a civil servant is a doctor in the Luftschutz or a member of the DRK, or like Chris stated... police or other non military govt workers.

The Beamte were uniformed members of the branch of service they were inducted into.

[mravery]

Hey guys,

From this thread.. it looks like there are still some questions about it......

So.. would attorney's be considered beamten ?

I.e. they are not in the command structure........

Would a beamten actually be IN the military service (i.e. go through the training ).. wear the uniform...... get the paycheck that all other military personel get.. jsut not be in the command structure...

And would they were the uniform (other than distintive insignia) ?

Cheers

Mark

[Tony]

I'm with David on this one.

And Chris.

Tony

Edited April 28, 2006 by Tony

[Laurence Strong]

Coles German/Enlish Dictionary

Beamte? nm-n, Beamtin nf-nen 1 official. 2 civil srvant

TM-E 30-451 Handbook on German Military Forces. US War Department Tech Manual 15 March 1945 says the following on page I-II para (d):

"........ARMED FORCES OFFICIALS (Wehrmacht-beamte).

Officials in administrative, legal, and technical service positions are a category particular to the German Armed Forces. They consist of civil service personel performing functions within the Armed forces and are recruited, in part, from former professional non-commisioned officers who became military candidates for civil service (Militarwarter)at the end of their 12 year contractural period of military service. Until 1944, none of these officials were classified as soldiers, but certain groups have now been converted into officers in the Special Troop Service (Truppensonderdienst-TDS). These are the higher administrative officers (Intendanten) in ranks from captain to lieutenant general; the lower administrative officers (Zahlmeister) in the ranks offirst and second lieutenants, and the judge advocates (Richter) in ranks from captain to lieutenant general. It was also made possible for reserve service technical officers to become reserve officers of the motor maintenance troops if qualified.

In addition to regular Armed Forces officials, there are the categories of reserve officials Beamte des Beurlaubtenstandes-B.d.B.' also refered to as B.d.R.), officials in recalled status "at disposal of the Army, etc." (Beamte zur Verfugung-B.z.V.), and officials appointed for the duration (Beamte auf Kreigsdauer-B.a.K.). These 3 categories are collectivly refered to as supplementary Armed Forces officials (Erganzungswehrmachtbeamte). Fuctionaries of the military administration in occupied areas (Wehrmachtangehorige) who are not civil service officials in peacetime are treated in the same manner as these 3 categories in matters of compensation......."

I hope this helps, but I have probably muddled the waters more

Edited April 28, 2006 by Laurence Strong

[Paul R]

Now I am totally confused!!!!

[joerookery]

Would a beamten actually be IN the military service (i.e. go through the training ).. wear the uniform...... get the paycheck that all other military personel get.. jsut not be in the command structure...

And would they were the uniform (other than distintive insignia) ?

Mark,

Hard one to compae to US positions! They were miltary and civilian uniform wearing, non-soldiers assigned to specific technical functions under the auspieces of the various war ministers. They had rank equivalencies. In the helmet world I have yet to find a comprehensive source in English but Stubbs makes a stab at it. They are not listed in the military pay charts. There were MANY types and the insignia changed over time.

examples include:

Pharmacists

Remount depots

Garisonverwaltung (real estate management.)

Military Court

Music inspectors.

People always think Zahlmeister becauser there were many and operated down to Bn level. (664 and 498 unterzahlmesters in the 166 Prussian regiments for example.)

My favorite story is that there were no miltary dentists before the war so they used civilians.

[Chris B.]

I would say a Beamter is a civil servant of sorts. An Amt is a Bureau. So a Beamter is like a Bureaucrat. A Beamter is aso kind of a generic term. In Germany a guy who works for the post office or the Railroad or even the Zoll could say he was a Beamter. It was kind of a "Stand" thing to be able to say, " Ich bin Beamter", rather than being a worker, ein " Arbeiter". A schoolteacher is a Beamter. When he gets hired, it says so on his certificate. He has been accepted into a "Beamtenverhaeltnis" with the State. Cheers, Chris B.

PS I think their pay schedule is different from other folks, monthly or bi- weekly rather than weekly.

[Stogieman]

Pretty accurate I was with post #2....... assorted flunkies. I believe in the US these are called REMF...... don't ask.

[mravery]

Pretty accurate I was with post #2....... assorted flunkies. I believe in the US these are called REMF...... don't ask.

Hey Rick,

I wouldn't be so fast to call Pharmacists, Dentists, Attornys etc as flunkies.

So far from the thread (from what I can make of it so far) is that they are (or could be) highly trained and specialized civilian personal who are then under contract (or drafted perhaps) into the military service.

I don't think you would see a High School teacher (who was teaching High School) wear a military Beamten uniform.

I could be wrong... but that is my take so far....

Cheers

Mark

[Paul R]

I am so sorry... I am embarassed to say that I thought that I was commenting to a thread in the TR area...

[Laurence Strong]

Well I don't think they were restricted to the TR, I am not up on the Imperial end so much, but I think they were there also.

[Glenn J]

Mark,

Military officials both in Imperial and later periods had a dual status. They were at the same time both Reich (State) Civil servants and members of the Armed Forces. Although in the majority of cases uniformed, they were not considered as soldiers in the normal sense. They had either the general rank of officers or of NCOs but not the command authority usually invested in combattant commissioned officers. They were however, fully entitled to the courtesy and respect afforded to personnel of the corresponding military status.

The badges of rank worn were similar in pattern to those of their pure soldier collegues and the actual rank insignia worn was determined by their Beamten rank as corresponded to the rank order of Reich civil servants. For example a Milit?r Intendant who ran the logistics (supply and pay) functions of an Army Corps would usually be rank ranged between either a Councillor (Rat) 1st ,2nd or 3rd Class. The former wearing the rank insignia of a Generalmajor and the latter two, that of an Oberst or an Oberstleutnant respectively. What confuses the issue slightly is the fact that many military officials had in addition to their function title, a further "courtesy" title by which they were invariaby listed. Again using the example of the Intendant at corps level, these chaps were awarded the courtesy title of "Wirklicher Geheimer Kriegsrat" for the two senior ranks and that of "Geheimer Kriegsrat" for the Oberstleutnant equivalent.

The military officials in Imperial times, like their officer and NCO counterparts were permanently established personnel on the strength of the individual contingents. There was a further sub-division into Military Officials and civil officials of the Military Administration. In simple terms this meant that the former were fully deployable into the field on mobilisation and the latter would remain in the homeland. However, this distinction became blurred in wartime and all officials could be mobilised for service with the army in the field.

To answer your specific points in your last post:

1. Yes, Attorneys were military officials of the military justice administration.

2. With regards command structure, they had authority within their own jurisdiction but on purely military matters were usually subordinate to the Chief of Staff or operations officer of the higher formation headquarters to which they were subordinate to.

3. All German males were subject to military service. The officials like everybody else would either have been a former officer or NCO, a reserve or Landwehr officer or a retired reserve or Landwehr officer. Many of the junior secretarial posts (Subalternbeamte) were reserved for former career NCOs.

4. The pay of Military officials compared very favaourably with those of the soldiers. Again using the Intendants, they were salaried between 8,000 - 12,000 Marks per year depending on seniority. A Regimental Commander received at the same time a salary of 8772 per year in peacetime.

5. Uniform was similar to that worn by any other officer of a dismounted branch of the army with specific official insignia such as rank rosettes instead of stars and an official coat of arms worn on shoulder boards/epaulettes and headdress. Facing and button colours differentiated different branches of the military administration.

This is a huge subject!

Regards

Glenn

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Glenn

Thanks for that informative post That does clear the air considerably.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Laurence Strong

[Paul R]

So it seems that we are all correct, depending how we are looking at things.

Agreed. Thank you Glenn for clearing this topic for us!

Paul

[mravery]

Hey Glenn,

Thanks... that info was great... and it does appear to be some what complicated....... I'm assuming that this is the same for German as well as Austrian ?

Cheers

Mark

[mravery]

Hello all,

I just added a uniform thread with a tunic that I believe is a Beamten ....

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7904

Cheers

Mark

Edited April 29, 2006 by mravery

[Glenn J]

Hi Mark,

I'm assuming that this is the same for German as well as Austrian ?

I was referring to German Military Officials but the basic principles stand the same for Austro-Hungarian Milit?r-Beamten.

Regards

Glenn

[Chris B.]

Just to add a final note. You don't need to have a war to have Beamten. Beamten are civil servants . A Studienrat for example, is a Beamter. But yes, in war-time a Studienrat would not be a Militaer Beamter because there is not a demand for that line of work in the Army in wartime. However, a civil servant whose line of work was relevant in a military context in wartime could conceivably be a Militaer Beamter. I have a relative in Germany who is a Studienrat. He refers to himself as a Beamter. Cheers, Chris B.

[Chip]

You guys think this is complicated? Try figuring out all of the shoulder insignia worn by Beamten. The army is a piece of cake in comparison!

Chip

[Ulsterman]

Paul-

These temporary, specialized officials were Sonderfuhrer-in the TR.

Note also that Beamten were subject to Courts of Honour, but there was vigorous debate as to whether Sonderfuhrer were subject to Courts of Honour in the late 1930s.