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    jeffskea

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    Posts posted by jeffskea

    1. Just a side note from this medal group's research but as I was reading through the French award citations I came across a very interesting discussion between the Foreign Office and French authorities with regard to upgrading a Maj Gen Sir Humphrey Gale in the LdeH for services in Normandy which led to a 4-foreign-medal-rule predicament:

      The initial recommendation was for a Commandership into the Order of Merit Maritime, oddly enough, however that would have been a breech of the 4 medal rule - that being that a single officer could receive no more than four foreign decorations during the War - and the Maj Gen already possessed two American decorations and two French, one of which was the Moroccan Order of Ouissam Alaouite - quote from the correspondance: "a Moorish Order which is comparitively small beer and which he probably does not value very highly". It was then proposed to upgrade his Officer of the LdeH to Commander as a means to stay within the rules and ensure he was properly recognized as they deemed a promotion meant the same ribbon, no new decoration and not a fifth award.

      The issue then arose that it was common practice when upgrading within an Order to count that as two separate awards and so again break the 4 medal rule. The Foreign Office were persistant and were able to find a previous exception and wished to pass to the French this new proposal to be applied to Maj Gen Gale. The "loophole" was discovered that if a recipient technically qualified for a higher grade at the time of receiving a lower grade of the order, a correction could be made, replacing the lower grade with the higher and amending that with the original award date and so avoiding an official "upgrade" within the Order. This "revision" proposal was then sent back to the French and eventually confirmed and revised to authorize the Commander of the LdeH to be awarded to Maj Gen Gale while remaining "within regulations". Why go to such lengths to ensure the Maj Gen received his Commandership? I have to quote the apparent reason below,

      "We cannot help thinking that it would be rather unfair to keep General Gale out of the Commandership of the Legion merely because he happened to have had the Ouissam Alaouite inflicted upon him." (yes...inflicted!)

      For official correspondance there is quite a bit of personality in the paperwork for the French awards, quite a few interesting stories like this as I go along which would be fun to share but shouldn't get too off topic I suppose. Anyway a fascinating insight from an administrative persperctive of the War and interesting to know these type of coversations were occuring within official channels among other routine correspondance as the War raged on.

      Jeff

    2. Thank you all for the encouragement, I had never thought of it before but will certainly consider an article down the road if it may be of interest or help to others. It definitely has been an interesting process so far, the simplicity and complexity of this particular group has driven me to keep going to find the face behind the medals, bringing them to life is what I love most about collecting.

    3. Good day,

      Another update in the continuing search for the possible recipient of this interesting group. I have found the complete listing of French awards to the British Army (WO 373/185) free to download from the National Archives, with recommendations, citations, and decrees of award from 1940-49. I'm not sure how I missed finding this before but it is the most complete record I have found so far, over 1390 pages. It is fascinating to read the process of awarding French decorations to the British and it specifically states that no individual awards were gazetted in the LG during the War.

      A few interesting things I've noted so far:

      Regarding the Officer degree of the LdeH, only in a few cases so far has it been awarded to anyone below Major General, there are a few Brigadiers and some Col/Lt Col but very few. It was a high level degree and really not awarded very often I've seen having gone through the first 1000 pages so far.

      Second, nearly all recipients of the Legion of Honour for operational service overseas were automatically awarded the Croix de Guerre. It is usually stated if the LdeH is to be awarded alone for non-operational type service. This confirms that the above group was for non-operational service and still quite possibly awarded after the War.

      Despite the CdeG given automatically with the LdeH in most cases, the award authorities stress often that there should be no double recognition of one service. So you see penciled in beside most recommendations any other British or foreign decorations received and dates of awards. To my delight in SHAEF recommendations, awards of the U.S. Bronze Star or Legion of Merit were pencilled in next to those who had already been awarded one to ensure the LdeH was not being given for the same service. Very interesting to see so far that those who had received a Bronze Star already and were being recommended for a LdeH (O) actually were downgraded to the CdeG. I have still yet to see a LdeH (O) and BS combo but he/she would have most certainly been awarded them for two separate services to each country.

      There was a very interesting section to a list of recipients to the various intelligence services, including M.I.6 where it was requested by the Director of Military Intelligence to state whether the recipients' awards were for "UK" or "overseas" service. The following reply came with the list of recipients and indicated where each had served and with what intelligence service.

      On a last note, I have also downloaded the complete awards of U.S to British from 1942-47 (WO 373/147 - another 600 pages!) for free from the National Archives. Both these records seem to be heavily focused on the Army, there are a few Navy/Air Force included and have not been able to find a complete Admiralty or Air Ministry listing yet. I have had access to most of these records before but not so complete and not including the French awards so hopefully I will be able to to find something, or at least rule the Army out completely! Regardless it has been a very fascinating insight into the foreign award process during the War.

      Jeff

    4. I agree, fortunately the dealer obtained them directly from the family who are still living in Aberdeen where Engineman Thorn came from, so there may be a chance they still have his other Star and possibly his RNPS Silver Badge! Interestingly though there is no mention of the Badge being awarded on his service record, but I think it is almost certain he would have recevied one as he spent the entire five years of the War with the Patrol Service and served on vessels all around the UK, from Scapa Flow to Lowestoft and Birkenhead to Ardrossan. A long ardurous job in Home Waters and interesting story for sure so far.

    5. Good day,

      Just an update on this interesting group, I found Engineman Thorn's RNR service record at the National Archives online, it covers from 1935 to the end of the War and his full list of vessels served on. Going through it now, he was on trawlers and minesweepers with the RNPS for the entire War beginning in 1939 right to the end. There is no mention of him being a diver or doing any salvage work on the Royal Oak however he was a W/A/Eng on HMS Olive based out of the depot ship HMS Prosperine at Lyness, Scapa Flow from April of 1940 to April of 1941.

      As I'm going through his service record it seems very likely to me that he would have qualified for the 1939-45 Star as well for his service which looks to have been entirely in UK Homewaters. I believe his service on HMS Olive alone would have given him the 12 month requirement to be entitled to both the 1939-45 and Atlantic Stars. He also served on numerous trawlers/MMS well before the last six months of the War so I doubt his Altantic Star was his only entitlement. If any one has more informaiton regarding campaign star entitlement to RNPS groups that would be great.

      Jeff

    6. Thank you Mervyn, researching and hearing all the possible theories has been enjoyable and I too hope that in time something will come up. In my opinion the set looks like it was worn proudly by a veteran for many years, there is nice wear and the mounting doesn't seem too modern. I dream of finding the recipient appearing in a local newspaper clipping at a remembrance day service or legion somewhere at some point, a bit of a needle in a hay stack but with one small breakthrough anything is possible.

      Jeff

    7. Just an update for anyone who may be interested, I received a letter back from the Grand Chancellery of the Legion of Honor from Paris and unfortunately none of the thirty four names I provided were recipients of any grade of the LdeH. I had narrowed down those names based on a few factors: recipients of the BS who already possessed an MBE when their U.S. award was listed in the LG, and only those names connected to operations in NW Europe that didn't seem to indicate any operational service in theatre.

      I will return to my list of British Bronze Star recipients and sift through it again, possibly only cancelling out names that have other post nominal letters or ones with combat citations as I can fairly certainly rule out those. I didn't consider too many Mediterranean-related awards but I suppose technically the recipient could have been Gibraltar based in support of the Torch landings and still fit.

      I have to admit I took a few stitches out from the back of the court mounting to see if possibly the tailor left any maker's label or name of the recipient on the buckram but I cannot see anything. Hated to do it but you never know and I don't think it detracts from the set too much, it is still intact.

      There are not too many options left but there is still a small chance. A bit time consuming but still not completely hopeless, and while it was two months before the Chancellery replied they were still quite helpful and supportive.

      Jeff

    8. Hello,

      Just picked this set up. A nice group to 9966 Engineman J. McIver Thorn, RNR who was said to have been one of the initial divers sent down to investigate the Royal Oak after its tragic sinking at Scapa Flow in 1939. I have confirmed his RNR LS&GC in the medal roll for 14 June 1945 while attached to the Minesweeping Base Ship Miranda, Motor Minesweeper 1020, out of Yarmouth.

      The set came from a dealer in Scotland who received it direct from the family, I've sent for his service record so hopefully that will verify the story of his diving on the Royal Oak.

      I'm beginning to find single campaign star groups very intriguing, especially the Atlantic Star. It was awarded alone if the recipient served operationally only during the last six months of the War and had not previously qualified for the 1939-45 Star. This would fit with Engineman Thorn's service if he was stationed in Scapa Flow for the majority of the War, then served aboard Motor Minesweepers in the North Sea in 1945.

      Quite fascinating and looking forward to his service record.

      Jeff

    9. It is interesting in that the document was issued in June of 1945, exactly a year after Gds. Jr. Sgt Demkov joined the 173rd in 1944. If they were awarded to each Guardsman, you'd think they would show up more frequently, but maybe it could also have been one of those papers that easily got lost in the mix. Sure completes the group nicely.

      Jeff

    10. Hi Paul here is the Guards document from above with translation - issued 30 June 1945 by the 173rd Gds Rifle Regiment. I haven't seen any others so far - is it possible that this unit still consisted of mainly regular professional soldiers at the end of the War and had excellent clerks? The 173rd were quite literally at the tip of the spear at the end so maybe they were the "best of the best" ? Definitely an interesting document.

      Jeff

      CITATION

      HKO-CCCP

      173rd GUARDS Rifle Regiment (58th Guards Division - 5th Guards Army)

      6 July, 1945

      No. 77

      Issued by the Guard – Junior Sergeant Mikhail. Y. Demkov

      That he served for 173 Guards Rifles Czestochowa [City in Poland liberated 16 Jan 1945] Red Banner Regt, 58th Guards Rifles Krasnograd [ukrainian City] Order of Lenin, Red Banner, Order of Suvarov Division.

      From June 30, 1945 No. 76 awarded the title "Guard" on the issuance of the breast badge “GUARDS”

      AUTHORITY – NKO (Narodnyi Komissariat Oborony - People's Commissariat of Defense) Order No. 420 from 31 December 1942 (58th Guards Rifle Division was formed on that date from the 1st Rifle Division which fought at Stalingrad under the 63rd Army)

      Chief of Staff of 173 Gd. Rif. Czestochowa

      Red Banner Regiment

      GUARDS LIEUTENANT COLONEL

      Signed MOISEEV

    11. I have just gone through the resource "United States Decorations Awarded to the Armed Forces of the British Empire in WWII" Parts 1 and 2 (edited by Jeff Floyd) which includes all 1191 Commonwealth recipients of the Bronze Star Medal from the Army, Navy, and Air Force extracted from the London Gazette.

      I've narrowed the MBE-Bronze Star combos down to 55 out of 989 Army, 9 out of 175 RAF/RAFVR, and none out of 27 to the Naval forces.

      From those 64 possibilities I was able to cancel out any that were awarded in a theater of war (N. Africa, Italy, Burma) so I am left with 27 Army and 7 RAF/RAFVR. I am keeping any awarded for "NW Europe" in case any were awarded for connections to the operations without ever having served in the operational theater.

      From this list I will write to the Grand Chancellery of the Legion of Honor in Paris and determine if any of these were awarded the Officer of the Legion of Honor during the WWII period.

      The possibility of actually determining the recipient is getting closer and quite exciting :)

      Jeff

    12. Suppose I should read the entire book before posting, but also reading that one reason some pre-1939 personnel still serving in the '50's opted for the CD instead of their old service specific medals - was the shortened service required and the possible attraction of post-nominals :)

      It is a very complete resource that answers everything.

    13. Just reading through this fascinating history on Canadian long service medals - regarding the CD clasp in question - the KC design was actually issued until 1957 apparently - initially the sewing holes on the clasp were too small for a needle to fit so they had to make the alterations on future clasps. This may help to confirm that Ed's CD and clasp was one of the first issued in 1950. Interesting stuff.

      Jeff

    14. Also I wonder could there have been a statute when the CD was instituted that authorized retroactive service before 1939 to be recognized for permanent officers? Technically if that was the case an officer commissioned in 1930 and serving in 1952 would be entitled to a G.VI. CD with KC clasp. I would be interested to see some pre-post war serving perm officers, like Lt. Gen E.L.M. Burns or Gen Guy Simmonds, and see what clasps they have on their CD's.

      Anyhow the BWM and CD from Ed's group will be named, so maybe he knows the story behind the recipient?

    15. Just a small note to clarify - there were two paths of long service medals that led to the CD - Permanent/Reg Force and Part Time/Reserve -

      For Permanent Forces - the Colonial Forces of the Empire Beyond the Seas LS&GC was replaced by the Canadian Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and then the CD for all Reg Force NCO's - Permanent officers receiving no long service recognition until the CD came out.

      For Militia/Reserve - The Colonial Auxilliary Forces Decoration and Long Service Medal were replaced by the Efficiency Decoration (officers) and Efficiency Medal (enlisted) respectively, and then the CD.

      I agree with Tac Hel that by regulations the King's Crown was not possible but I'm sure stranger things happened - again the theory that he may have been commissioned from a Permanent NCO to Officer and felt he deserved recognition for his long service once the CD was established and open to both officers and enlisted - not authorized of course but maybe one of those personal alteration preferences that occasionally occur.

      Jeff

    16. Thanks for posting that Ed I've never seen a G.VI. Bar before - I suppose it could be possible if he was commissioned as a regular officer some time after receiving his Perm Forces of the Empire Beyond the Seas LS&GC? The set shows at least 40 years of service, you'd think he would have been entitled to the Canadian Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal after 1930 if he remained enlisted - maybe he elected to receive the CD instead as a preference?

      Jeff

    17. Again thanks to the translation work of Ferdinand, I have been able to find more on Gds. Jr. Sgt Demkov - he was a Squad leader, rifleman, sub machine gunner and machine gunner who joined the Reserve in 1934 and was mobilized by the Military Commissariat of the City of Dneprodzerzhinsk, Ukraine on Jan. 1 1944.

      He was severely wounded in the right forearm on 21 Feb 1944 while a rifleman with the 140th Rifle Regt (possibly in the Krivoi Rog operations) and was in hospital from Feb to June 44. He was then transferred to the 173rd in June and served as a Squad Leader until November 45.

    18. I am very grateful to Ferdinand for translating the following citation for Guards Sgt Pertsevoi of the 114th Tank Regiment, 16th Guards Mechanized Brigade, 6th Guards Mechanized Corps, 4th Guards Tank Army:

      "Guards Sergeant Ivan Ivanovich Pertsevoi, tank gun commander in the 1st Tank Company, for the fact that he, during the fighting on the approaches to the city of Prague (Czechoslovakia), showed exceptional courage and bravery. While on a reconnaissance mission on May 7, 1945 he used his gun and machine gun to destroy one self-propelled artillery piece, one cannon and up to a platoon of German soldiers and officers."

      Very interesting citation for bravery after rushing down from Berlin during the approach to Prague a day before Germany surrendered - literally fighting to the last day!

      I wonder if his unit stopped outside of the city as he was not awarded the Liberation of Prague Medal. That offensive is unique as well in that the battle was not won until three days after the War ended. Very exciting stuff.

      Jeff

    19. The first five clasps to the GSM 1918-62 were all issued for operations in the Iraq/Kurdistan/Persian areas: 'S. Persia', 'Kurdistan', 'Iraq', 'NW Persia', 'Southern Desert Iraq', and "Northern Kurdistan', followed by 'Palestine' starting in 1936.

      The 10th Royal Hussars had returned to the UK by 1936 so chances are they would not have been entitled to any campaign medals during the inter-war period other than possibly the IGS 1908-35 if they served on the NW Frontier, or in Burma around that time. There are 4 possible clasps they could have received during that time: 'NW Frontier 1930-31, 'Burma 1930-32', 'Mohmand 1933' or 'NW Frontier 1935' - however being garrisoned in India didn't always guarantee operational service with entitlement to a medal.

      Regarding service in Ireland, again no campaign medals were issued, however I have seen some individuals who received decorations during those operations, usually a MBE to an officer or a Medal of the Order of the British Empire or Meritorious Service Medal to an NCO.

      Jeff

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