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Thanks Tony thats interesting, the Industry Service Medal is a new one on me, but I think what you say is correct. Seems very plausible, think you have cracked it. Regards Pete.

As a collector of MVK medals, and award documents, the reasons that the award cases changed from wood with metal attachments to all cardboard cases in 1917 seem obvious as everything became tighter for the Germans as the War dragged on. My question though is why did they change the colour of the award cases from blue to red? I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Regards Pete

As I understand it the Fireman medals like the forty year one above didn't appear until the 1920's. Up until the end of WW1 the standard 25 year award, I believe, was a badge with a needle attachment. Here is a photo of one from my collection; The last ribbon is blue with white edge stripes which would suggest perhaps a twenty year Bavarian Red Cross award as Fireman crosses had white ribbons with either blue or red edge stipes. Either way it's a bit of a conundrum, thanks for showing. Regards Pete

Hi Laurentius, Ignoring the Crown for now, the rear medallion of the medal and the swords could pass as an early example from Deschler, but the front medallion looks like one from the modern copies that regularly appear on a well known auction site. As far as the Crown is concerned it is distinctly dodgy. Having said that the pictures aren't great, but it isn't a medal I would touch. Hope this is of help. Best regards Pete

Thanks very much for your reply Andreas, much appreciated. Regards Pete

Hi, just received this nice EK2 award doc to a Pioneer in the Bavarian 5th Res Pioneer Company, Josef Dobmeier. What makes it a bit more special is he was a recipient of the Bavarian Silver Bravery Medal. I get the general gist of the citation but I would really appreciate it if someone could please provide a full translation. Regards Pete

Hi Camelneck, thanks for the comments. I also think this bar has a chance to be traceable and I agree the SM cross is a great medal. Hope yours turns up OK it looks a good example. Best regards Pete

Yes I was looking at it also, but was a bit too rich for me. Definitely looks ok. Leiber Sebastian Englet born 23/9/1892 at Ichenhausen, Gunzburg. 15/10/14 Taken as recruit at Recruiting Depot 1 of Leib Reg. 29/5/16 As I was saying before I pressed the wrong button........!!! 29/5/16 Ill in Hospital at Charleville 30/6-17/8 1916 at Verdun but on 16/7/16 transferred to Leib Reg Minenwerfer Comp. 21/4/18 Promoted Gef for an act of bravery 24/5/18 In hospital having op for a hernia. 12/8/18 Sent to 1 E MGK at Munich. Awards; MVK3 EK2 Black Wound Badge. Regards Pete

Interesting thread, here is an award doc from my collection, to an X-Ray operative (Rontgenmechaniker) in the Bavarian Medical Service, that I thought might be of interest to you. He was quite a distinguished photographer prior to the War, presumably why he ended up operating an X-Ray Machine. Regards Pete

I think there could be a good chance of finding this man, but I think some of your assumptions may be incorrect. The Bavarian Jubilee Medal with LD1 is a very common combination in Bavarian senior medics, but surprisingly the RA4 and PK3 combination is not common at all. Indeed in the 1914 Bavarian Militar Handbuch I can only find one amongst the medics Oberstabsarzt Johann Hausmann and I believe I have his bar, which is very similar to yours, except that the PK3 has been removed. My guy was still attached to the Bavarians so got the King Ludwig. I believe your guy could well be a Medic in the Bavarian Army born around 1860 retired before the War, probably just after 1905, was either from Lippe or still a practising Medic there who did War work. Hence he got the Prussian Hilfdienst and Lippe and the EK2 on non combattant. Very few Bavarians received the Prussian Centenary Medal. He could well have died before 1934, hence no FEK. Just my take on the bar, I will look into it later and check it out. Regards Pete

Hi Chris, yes I also read Karl Steinberger. Born 18/10/1888, One year volunteer 1/10/12 in Pioneers 1/7/13 U/O 5/5/14 Vfld d R 25/9/14 Off Stel RIR 17 27/11/14 Commissioned as Lt d R in RIR17 Later transferred back to Pioneers and served some time on the Staff of Bavarian Pioneer Battalion 05, hence the above uniform I suppose. Awarded EK2 20/11/14, EK1 25/5/17 and MVO4 28/12/16 Regards Pete

Hi Chris a few years ago I acquired a memorial box that had been kept by the wife of Hauptmann von Zerssen, a company chief, of RIR86. It contains all sorts of bits and pieces relating to his service and death. He was badly wounded at Carlepont and died in hospital at Noyon on the 22nd Sept 1914. His EK2 certificate is dated 6/3/1916 So I thought I might have had one for you, until I read the final newspaper cutting! It is strange though that non of the cuttings or his letters reveal his award of the EK2, apart from the above, dated 6 days after his death. Regards Pete

Here is August Winters war record, it would appear he served in Macedonia and Serbia, where he contracted Malaria, but not the Tirol. When I have more time next week I will try and download the records of the other guys on your list for you. The other thing to mention though is that the second medal may not be a MVO4 but an MVK2. Best regards Pete

Bavarian Landwehr first class on a bar. Regards Pete

Funnily enough I have just archived one such document to a Bavarian, Peter Geimer, who won the award in 1916 and eventually got a certificate and presumably the medal in 1934. Regards Pete

What I posted is his Wartime service record, the stuck in list on the right opposite his name details where he was during the War, it would appear that this Eugen Nachbauer served throughout the War from August 1914 right through to the end of the War. Regards Pete

There is an Eugen Nachbauer who served in the Bavarian Railway. Could be him, details enclosed. Regards Pete

Haven't got many pairs but here's a Bavarian one for you. .....and another

Doesn't look good, I would say a doctored Deschler 3rd class. I like the enamelled pre 1905 MVK though looks in great condition. Regards Pete

Thanks for confirming that Chuck I thought it was about that number awarded in 1918. Regarding the fixing of the Turkish medal, the red band of the ribbon is actually separate to the white ribbon and if you look carefully at the photo supplied by Andreas the medal is actually fixed to the bar with this red band and some white thread in the left corner. There is indeed a hole in that position. The red band must have come away at some stage hence the medal being reattached lower down and the red band has been stitched back on. I agree with Andreas, comparing the ribbon folds and the uniqueness of this combination it must be the same bar, just who did it belong to ??? Fascinating, thanks for all the comments. Regards Pete

Thanks very much Andreas, amazing coincidence you having that photo. Regards Pete

Sorry Andreas it was just too good to miss!!! Where did you get that photo? I agree with you it certainly looks and feels a good one, there can't have been too many zinc merit crosses awarded on non combatant ribbon. What do you reckon about 60-70?? I know now that Rick produced the rolls for this one is there a copy out there that I can buy? Best regards Pete

Thanks again for your help Jens, very useful links. Two very brave men who met sad ends. Best regards Pete

A couple of years ago I acquired a few docs and photos belonging to a Dr Otto Finkenauer of Bavarian IR18. He was holder of the Militar Sanitats Orden 2nd Class and was killed on the 6th of June 1917 during the preliminary bombardment to the attack on the Messines Ridge on the 7th, when a direct hit demolished a bunker being used by the medical team killing him and several others. Here is a picture of Otto and the demolished bunker. The following day another resident from Rockenhausen died, also at Messines, Fritz Martin, holder of the Silver Bravery Medal and MVK1. The reason I know this is that the newspaper entries announcing their deaths appeared on the same page side by side and survived with this small collection. Two very brave men from the same town. Best regards Pete

Hi this is my latest and I think rarest medal bar. It consists of; Hilal-i Ahmer Medalyasi (Turkish Red Crescent Medal) in Bronze Saxe Meiningen Merit Cross in Zinc on Non Combatant ribbon 1905 PRLM in silver to Civil Servant 1916 Ludwig Cross I believe only about 100 Merit crosses were awarded in 1918 on Non combatant ribbon so presumably less in zinc. Do the rolls for the Merit Cross exist and if so would it be possible to narrow it down to a few names for me to research? Any help would be appreciated, and if not possible I hope you like the bar anyway. Best regards Pete