Bilco

Just acquired - from the obverse a rather time-worn Johnson Italy Vic Official Type 2 ...

... but the reverse shows it's had another use ...

It came to me from Pakistan, but there must be a tale on how it got there. Was it used as an ID tag for an Indian Army POW in Italy in WW2? Or a tool board tag? Is there any clue in the number under the name - does it match any particular Indian Army regiment or corps?

In any event, it's an intrigueing addition to the collection, and I'm wondering whether to put it on a ribbon or not. Any suggestions as to it's use?

Bill

I haven't seen that medal before, Lambert - a nice piece. The medal ribbon seems to be the Victory medal colours reversed - blues in the middle instead of reds.

Bill

A nice example David.

Bill

Thanks for that, Jim. I've taken another photo of the mark on the edge under different lighting:

I can see on the left side the A and B, and that star at the top, and the circle at the bottom. Perhaps the punch used to make the mark wasn't held vertical when struck, and the bottom right isn't impressed properly. This is much like your second photo in post 504.

If anyone else has medals with this mark on please let's see 'em!

Bill

Hi Jim,

Yes, the mark on my medal is rather distorted compared with the example you posted - a worn punch?

Bill

Hi Jim,

I think the second of the 4 photos in your post is very close to my example in shape- although your photo is much clearer than mine!

I also have a Reproduction Type 1 which has MADE IN FRANCE on the edge but no BRONZE or maker's stamp.

Many thanks

Bill

Rob, Jim,

Many thanks for your posts and helpful comments. I've rotated a close-up of the stamp to align it with the image in post # 501, and I think it's a pretty good match:

The star is at the top of the triangle and the various elements make sense now, with the drawing to compare with the photo.

Bill

Hi Jim,

Yes, it certainly looks like your Repro Type 2 - I had rather assumed that it was by Delande, hence my mis-identification.

I've taken a couple of close-ups of the triangular stamp in different raking light to try to bring out the lettering:

It doesn't seem to match the examples of the Chobillon triangle mark I have, and the letters are something like A B C, although the layout of the stamp is different from other examples I've seen.

Could it be that the medal was produced before the 1930 act that required the country of origin to be shown, like the Delande example you posted?

Bill

Hi Gents,

My latest acquisition is what I think is a Delande repro of the US Vic - what Jim's book classifies as Reproduction Type 3. It has verdigris on both sides - looks like it was splashed with water which wasn't dried off.

Obverse

Reverse

And the obligatory close-ups:

Obverse

Reverse

And the stamp on the edge:

I can't decide whether it's a mis-shapen (or mis-struck) Delande square stamp or something else.

I shall try to neutralize the verdigris - the medal has already been polished!

All comments welcome.

Bill

Hi Gents,

I had something of a bonaza a week ago - I managed to acquire both the Reissue Type 1 and the Reissue Type 2, from different sources, within a couple of days. There are some interesting differences, both between the two of them and the Official Types:

The Reissue Type 1. It has no dots between the lower 3 words at the bottom of the planchet reverse. The planchet is a coppery-bronze colour, with a thick staffa, but the most striking thing to me is how thin it is - 1.75mm, about half the Official Type. The detail is shallower than the Official types, and there are detail differences..

The Reissue Type 2. It has no maker or designer naming on the obverse, and the upper lettering on the reverse has serifs, unlike the Official types. The planchet again has a coppery tint, and there has been artificial darkening around the detail, which is quite sharp. The planchet is thick, but the staffa is thin and rather short, compared to the Official types.

I've seen a couple of Italian vics which claim to have no manufacturer or designer naming, but the remains of incompletely erased lettering have still been visible, so I've turned them down.

I've been looking for the Reissue Type 1 for some time, so I was very pleased to find one, and even more pleased that the Type 2 appeared at the same time. At least those fruitless hours spent scanning the sites of on-line dealers have finally paid off!

All comments welcome.

Bill

Hi GM1,

We have seen a similar suspension before - post # 111 on page 6.

Bill

Right, this time I'll really concentrate ....

Firstly, a better photo of the medal I posted yesterday ...

The double-striking of the names is worst from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock.

There is another Unofficial Type 2 (see Jim, I can do it) with double-strike on the reverse on eBay at the moment (item # 390985041774) ...

This one is not so bad, the double-strike is most obvious at the top of the reverse. The obverse is fine, but it is skewed compared with the reverse, as can be seen from the suspension ball.

There was another example on eBay a while ago ...

I posted it here before. The double-strike of the names is very clear, and almost obscures the reversed N, particularly in the top half. The obverse is fine, and the suspension ball shows no sign of skewing.

Bill

:blush: :blush:

Bill

Hi Gents,

My latest acquisition - a Romania Unofficial Type 1 ....

...the reverse, looking pretty standard, although there are signs of double striking in the 4 names at the bottom of the planchet .....

... but the obverse looks very odd - a double strike, with the second strike off-set to the right by a couple of mm. The ball(?) suspension is curiously mis-shapen as well and seems to be slightly off-set to the right, looking at the obverse.

All comments welcome.

Bill

Hi Jim,

Is that a miniature? They came with all sorts of suspensions, from what I've seen.

Bill

Hi Jean-Michel,

I posted a very similar photo in the Fakes! section - http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/49866-fakes/page-7#entry568443

There was some discussion about this Cuba vic there.

Bill

Hi David,

What does it for me is the face on the medal currently on eBay. The features are very crude compared to the original Type 1:

Left the original, right the eBay medal.

There is a similar one, though the face isn't quite as crude, in a post Lambert made - post # 43/44. There is an example of the original Type 1 at post # 37, and a picture of the original design master at post # 120.

As you know, I have the Delande repro of the Type 2, and the face on that is much finer, so I don't think it's by Delande.

Bill

Hi Jim,

A bit of 'great minds...' there!

Bill

Hi David,

Looking at the face of Victory (if I've seen the same one on the Bay) I'd say it's a fake.

Bill

Hi Gents,

I've just acquired this modern reissue of the Official vic by Paris Mint, in its box:

Obverse

Reverse

The box is dark blue 'leather texture' with this label on the side:

The finish is very bright brassy/gold, and there is a clear Paris Mint cornucopia + BR on the reverse:

I have another Reissue which is much lighter bronze colour than the 1920s issue, but it's not shiny like this one. Any comments welcome.

Bill

Hi Peron,

It looks like the Delande Reproduction - rather like mine in post # 156!

Bill

Hi Gents,

Here is another small suspension ball Official Type 1 - I think it's been polished, rather than being the 'highly buffed' Type 2. The polishing shows that the suspension ball is a more coppery colour than the planchet:

It may even be a replacement ball.

Bill

IM sent.

Bill

Jim, Rob,

Many thanks for your comments. The photos serve to confirm that I have two Official Type2s. On the left-hand medal in my post # 172 the dots between the words at the bottom are very small and difficult to see, but they are there. The detail on the urn that you highlight, Jim , is very much less clear than on the right-hand one, too, but I shall go back to looking for the Reissues.

Jim, both the medals I show have the curved line at the top that you mention, as does the Official Type 2 I've had for years.

I do have both the Lorioli & Castelli long and short varieties, however, so I don't need to look for those!

Bill

Rob,

Many thanks for your comments - there do seem to be several variations in the suspension of the Belgian Official. This one seems to have an oval ball rather than the usual spherical one:

Bill