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    Polsa999

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      sb@essenjay.com

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      Aylesbury
    • Interests
      Pre 1930 Photographs of Metropolitan Police and Railway Police officers

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    1. Polsa999
      I do not propose that we spend too much time on the point since raised. The history of the railway, dock and canal police is not simple. Until the 20th century there was no primary legislation (BTC Act 1948) providing railway companies with the authority to appoint constables so most were appointed under special constable acts. The Great Western Railway police and the Great Eastern Railway police were granted, by royal prerogative , the right to place a crown on their plates....when the GER amalgamated with the LNER in 1923 that right was removed. It may be a surprise to some that many railway police forces such as the North British Railway and the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway police did not swear their constables in until the Edwardian period and they changed their rules and some forces did not swear constables in until they had served a probationary period. You will find that legally the current BTP officers, despite their public facing duties, are not Crown servants but contracted emplyees of the railway. I think that the matter can rest now.
    2. Polsa999
      I think the rules on the use of the crown emblem was governed by the Lord Chamberlains office even in Victoria's period. Having researched the history of railway, dock and canal police for a number of years it is obvious that some were allowed to place the crown on their helmet plates because of their service to Victoria......others just did it! I have not yet seen a Victoria crown on any canal police cap/helmet badge. Any evidence of this would be interesting. Steve
    3. Polsa999
      I think that Ross may be close to something in his assumption that this is a badge for a canal policeman. If this is the case then there would be some value in the badge, my only reservation is the use of the crown which would be unlikely but not impossible for a canal company to make use of for its policemen.
    4. Polsa999
      I need some help in explaining the awarding of the medal shown. It appears to have been presented to a civilian who left the Port of Glasgow the following day to the date on the medal to settle in Canada. I can find nothing to indicate why the medal was issued either in the family history or the archives of the British Transport Police History Group, of which I am a research and committee member. Any thoughts or information would be extremely useful as the HG has an enquiry from the grandson of the recipient. Many thanks Steve
    5. Polsa999

      Hi Peter

      The bottom line is that BTP will not reissue the medal, as the government do not do it. There are a number of licenced medal suppliers who for around £50 can supply an engraved medal. If the family wishes to pursue that then I am told that BTP may organise an official presentation of the medal to the family, probably in Liverpool. I await the decision.

      Best wishes

      Steve

      1. Deelibob

        Deelibob

        Thanks Steve,

        I have contacted Mandy (The Grandaughter) and await reply, but she will probably go for it. Will keep you posted.Thanks for everything.

      2. Polsa999

        Polsa999

        Hi Peter

        Did I give you my email? sb@essenjay.com

        Hope Mandy appreciates the 'politics' of it all.

        Best wishes

        Steve

    6. Deelibob

      Hi Steve, My friend the Sergeant is Grandaughter to Bert but her Mother will be making the claim as Bert's Daughter.

      Thanks for your Efforts.

      Peter

      1. Polsa999

        Polsa999

        Hi Peter

        Paul Crowther the BTP Chief Constable is an old colleague of mine so I have one of his staff officers running around. Apparently they have not had this type of request recently so no-one knows the procedure. Its moving forward.

        Regards

         

        Steve

      2. Polsa999

        Polsa999

        Hi Peter

        Still work in progress....nearly there!

        Best wishes

        Steve

         

    7. Polsa999
      Thanks Tony for the response, my question was always going to be a long shot. The officer was in the Regents Canal Dock Police and almost certainly have had no access to Jubilee medals etc. It will be either a campaign or bravery award I think. Thanks again Steve
    8. Polsa999
      Hi I know very little about Campaign medals, however I spend a lot of my time researching the history of railway, dock and canal police. This photo shows a group of medals awarded to a Regents Canal Dock policeman (London). I have a group photo of RCD police and this one may be the officer whose life and death I am investigating. He died under strange circumstances in 1927 whilst on duty at RC Dock, now called Limehouse Basin. This officer was placed in a Barnardo's home around 1913 and then sent to HMS Ganges, in late 1914 he was serving on HMS Hawke when it was torpedoed in the North Sea, after further service in the RN, record attached, he was invalided out in 1920. I have assumed that the middle and right hand medal is the War and Victory medal but have no suggestion as to the medal on the left. The ribbon looks to be all one colour. Can anyone help me please? Steve Leonard Wetherall RN records.pdf
    9. Polsa999
      David McNaughton, born 19 May 1843 in Islington, London. Shown on 1871 census as policeman and living in the Westminster area, having married Mary Ann Beavis on 21st April 1867. Subsequent census showed him as a police constable living in Hanover Square, London area until the 1901/1911 census when he is shown as retired and living in Soham, Cambridgeshire area until his death in the 2nd Quarter of 1930. I think that there may be a descendant or two on Ancestry if you wish to follow up. Steve
    10. Polsa999
      Hi Ross I think that it was October 1858 that the Bute Dock Police was formed and issued with cutlasses,, although the early docks did have watchmen. It was first headed by Supt. Daniel O'Brien Gavin, a retired military man. Well done on the find. Best wishes Steve
    11. Polsa999
      If you go to the Scottish Police Medals web site...it is mentioned on there.
    12. Polsa999
      The regular Police Long Service Medal was instituted in 1951....this is a George V medal and he died in 1936....so this is probably related to something else, I think the special constabulary....not a medal enthusiast so cannot comment with authority. Steve
    13. Deelibob

      Hi Steve,

      Again thanks for the information, I am at present getting ready to do some research on him, I will send full details of his citation and the location of incident for inclusion on the BTPHG site.

      The main reason for this message is that I initially went to the BTPHG site to view Michaels entry thereon, I then viewed Police Roll of Honour Trust and was a bit confused/dismayed to see he was not included on it.(AS best as I could see, but I do attend Spec Savers) I mention this just in case it has been an oversight and he is meant to be on the PRofHT.

      Regards

      Peter Dellius

      1. Polsa999

        Polsa999

        Hi Peter

        Thanks for the heads up, past experience with the PRoHT is not great. Additions to their Roll takes a great deal of time and for some reason never happens! However saying that, the HG do keep them updated. Thanks for the offer to keep us updated.

        Best wishes

        Steve Beamon

      2. Deelibob

        Deelibob

        Hi Steve,

        I was perusing an old Auction list (C.2010) and came across this pair of medals. Defence medal with Kings Commendation Oak Leaf for brave conduct and the LMS silver medal for courage.

        They were awarded to Special Constable Herbert George Thomas of Sheffield (Wicker) 12th December 1941 for Courage during the Blitz on Sheffield.

        I presume he was a Sheffield special but worked for LMS or could be the Gallant act took place on LMS land.

        Just two medals the LMS is shown Obverse and Reverse. They sold for £1000.oo

        Thought you may be interested.

        Regards, Peter

        56d194d7e9f2f_LMSThomas.jpg.b96663d13cd6

      3. Polsa999

        Polsa999

        Thanks Peter...sorry for delay in replying but not been so good! Will pass on the information for investigation. Best wishes Steve

        A quick reply.....yes there was a guy with this name who was a LMS police special but was based at Bow in London....thanks for the information. We now have to find out whether this is the correct one.....was the information about Sheffield on the eBay entry? Joined LMS specials on 25/09/1939 and left 24/09/1945 to return to the railway.

    14. Polsa999
      Both officers appear to be wearing the Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal and clasp which indicates that they were present at the 1887 and 1897 parades in London. It is probable that the other medal is for the King Edward VII coronation in 1902. I suspect that either the photographs were taken to commemorate the officers retirement after 1902 or the award of the coronation medal. As you are probably aware, the Met identified their officers by a warrant number which remained the same throughout their service, divisional letter/numbers remained with the officer only whilst they remained on that division. Although there are people out there who can research police order, rolls etc. NL is correct in that usually visiting the Friends of the Met History website and paying a fee for records check will probably reveal the information which you require. Or you can purchase - THE METROPOLITAN POLICE THE MEN AND THEIR MEDALS by J Kemp
    15. Polsa999
      A similar question was raised on 25 the April 2014 on this site and there is a comprehensive answer which you may find useful? Steve
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