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Paul L Murphy

Old Contemptible
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Posts posted by Paul L Murphy

  1. Nice!

    But even nicer is the date when our hero received his 8th class of Rising Sun Order.

    April 6, 1918 (according to London Gazette)!!!

    I think we are done with Taisho epoch either!

    This lot was recently sold in a London medal auction and I was lucky enough to be able to handle it at the viewing. I was actually going to bid on it until I handled it, however it was clearly a post war Rising Sun that had been added to the group. Unfortunately you cannot see the reverse in the auction photos, but it had all the characteristics that Dieter has shown on his post war 7th class in earlier posts within this thread.

  2. Fundraising in the aftermath of the tsunami.

    When I was a student in Japan I lived about 60 Kms from the nuclear reactors in Fukushima so I took all of the devestation rather personally since I remember what a lovely place it was, and how lovely and friendly the people were.

  3. Thank you very much Pieter for this info! :beer:

    As for the watershed between lapel and safe pin style rosettes ...

    I think that the final change occurred in 2003.

    But when these safe-pin style rosettes occurred for the first time?

    I guess Dieter dating was based on red cross orders rosettes ;)

    Personally I've never seen a documented red cross order with safe pin rosette inside the box...



    Hopefully in November I should be able to advise if the safe pin rosette comes with the modern Red Cross order since I will be awarded the Gold Merit Cross.

  4. Can you explain what you mean by "civilian ribbon" please ? Are you referring to the little metal and enamel lapel badge that comes with the medal set for wear in civilian clothes ?

    One of the key factors in the value will be the era of the medals and whether or not they were actually awarded. Hence are there are numbers impressed in the edge of them, are any of them named, and what type of broach they have (these can be used to date them) are all important. If you can get photos posted then we will be better able to help.



  5. Nick,

    A very fair question.

    You are correct that I only use authenticated and proven items, where it is possible to be certain of the date of award, to support my theories. Up to now the proven Golden Kite 3rd to 5th class items that I have handled have supported my theory regarding the position of the rivets changing over time. Hence why I came to the conclusion that it could be used as a simple guideline to work out the relative age of these orders. I have seen a number of the types of Kite posted in this thread, but never with documents or in circumstances that could confirm the period in which they belonged.

    This latest group clearly shows that my theory about the position of the rivets does not hold true, hence it needs to be abandoned. I have no interest in holding on to theories or hypothesis if they are shown to be incorrect. Like everyone else here I merely seek the truth so that we can better understand these items.

    As for my skeptical and critical comments, they are not directed at you as an individual so I apologise if I caused offence. You are well able to give as good as you get so I suggest we call it quits in that regard.

    My scepticism is directed at any and all hypotesis that are not supported by hard evidence. I have collected medals for 31 years (Japanese medals for 22 years) and I have seen my fair share of crank theories about medals that hold no water but mislead young collectors. Hence my desire to ensure that anything stated as being correct is in fact supported by evidence. I will be as hard on myself as I will on others (I have plenty of theories that I have not shared since I cannot get them to a level where I am happy with the proof) but hopefully the end result will be a better understanding of the truth behind the history of these medals rather than the fiction that grows up around so many things in our hobby.



  6. Perfect, many thanks. This is certificate 227,647 (but you probably knew that already). It fits perfectly in with the sequence of awards I have already got in my certificate database since 179,377 was awarded on 25th Sept 1938 and 231,129 was awarded on 8th December 1939. 48,270 awards (at least) of the Golden Kite in the year from Sept 38 - Sept 39 gives a good indication of either how much fighting was going on or how much more generous the government had become in awarding Golden Kites !

  7. No problem, Dieter. Glad I could help. It is nice to have even a little background on the people.

    Getting the roll / register books is hard. First of all, they are usually heavy volumes, so shipping overseas is too expensive. Another problem is that there is not a set for all years, just different groups publishing different years. It is really hit and miss finding these volumes. Oftentimes, book dealers assume that these are extraordinarily valuable since there were small print runs and the original price was outrageous. So they put the price so high that it isn't worth buying them. Not really sure, but I think most original buyers of these volumes were the people who got the awards. (BTW, I also am collecting volumes of the order rolls, too. Same problems with those.)

    That being said, they can be treasure troves of information for medal collectors. My Showa 44 volume has an entire page devoted to EACH recipient, if you can believe that. (Dark Blue Medals excepted). Wow, can't beat that. Other volumes usually have a short entry for each person.

    If anyone has a Medal of Honor that needs an ID, I may be able to help. I have all the pre-1941 Medal of Honor rolls and about 20 post-war volumes. Not complete by any means, but I may be able to help. Just be patient with me after your requests. I don't always have a lot of extra time.


    Generous indeed. The beers are on me next time I am in Fukuoka :cheers:

  8. See, now this is interesting. I've always been led to believe that the ones WITH rivets were WWII and prior, and that awards once re-issuance occurred were plain as were some late-war pieces, no rivets or screws! This one is obviously riveted. Either my belief is WRONG (at least partially), or there was a mixing of medal types. That medal also appears to have a hallmark - Paul, are you sure you're showing us the correct medal for this gentlemen? If it is correct, could it be one that was never awarded prior to the war's end, and safely survived only toy be awarded in 1967?? Scratching head....

    I checked the cert and it was awarded in 1963.

  9. Pieter / Nick,

    Thanks for posting these. The certificate is particularly interesting since it confirms that post war the Japanese used a different number roll for awards to foreigners versus awards to Japanese. The Sacred Treasure 3rd Class to Branstedt was certificate number 7,741 and was awarded in 1963. By Showa Year 56 (2 years before your award) the Japanese roll for the Sacred Treasure was already at number 1,951,149 !

    It appears that about 100 were awarded on average per year to foreigners during the period from the early 60s to early 80s. It is possible that the numbering of the roll for foreigners continued on post war where it left off in 1945 since certificate number 5,094 was awarded in 1927. We need to find a few more certificates for the Sacred Treasure to foreigners for the period between 1927 and 1963 to be able to draw a final conclusion in this regard.

  10. I have a fourth class Sacred Treasure issued in July 1983 to myself when I served as a diplomat in Japan. It has two rivets on the left and right arm. The rivets have a + incision on top for a scewdriver. Unfortunately I am a digiilliterate and don't know how to post a picture. The accompanying certificate was signed by prime minister Nakasone and is numbered 9809.

    By the way Paul (Murphy), did you buy the Defence of Legations set? I was very interested but it went beyond my budget.



    Many thanks for that information, it is really helpful. If you email me a photo of the medal and certificate I will post them here for you.

    Unfortunately I did not get the Defense of Legations medal, it went for way more than I could afford to pay at the time.



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