V.Vazov

Hello Gentlemen, I’d like to contribute to the topic with this 3rd class princely Rothe cross, for which I am looking for a case. If anyone have a spare one, please send me a message. And a question. How do we distinguish an early Rothe princely beast star from a later Rothe one? Many thanks, Vazov

Hi Graf, Nice finding as always. The reason is, I’m quite certain, that the 15-16 4 and 3 grade are from the same manufacturer. They are visibly different that the “usual” 15-17 4 grade. It’s be interesting to compare the “usual” ; garde 15-17 with this one. Regards, Vazov

Hi Igor, Is this a three dots 3 grade 2 class? Do you have better quality picture? Thanks, Vazov

Hello gents, I know you're gonna love this: first grade set in separate boxes for the badge and the star, both with Prince Alexander's monogram (barely visible but had no chance to make a better photo). @ilieff if you want the photos in better quality or if you can do some "magic" for the monogram to appear clarly, you've got my e-mail. Best Vazov

Hello gentleman, I start this topic, because we know very little about the personal badges of the Bulgarian Monarchs and especially about the ones with skulls and bones. Let's try to share our knowledge and to see how far we can get. We know I believe that the skulls and bones are a maçonic symbol and that Prince Alexander and King Ferdinand were maçons. I don't believe that the skulls and bones are related to King Ferdinand's attraction to the occult, because this type was introduced by Prince Alexander who was quite sober and practical person. He was certainly a maçon and was incognito a part of the first Bulgarian loge "Etoile des Balkans", founded in Rousse by Ivan Vedar, quite inlighted person that saved the city from massacre during the Liberation war thanks to his maçonic relations with the Turkish command (source wikipedia & one book). Do you have any info on what stands for those symbols and why the Bulgarian rulers were so keen on having exactly these unique pieces for their own use? I also assume we cannot talk about "emissions" on these pieces? Probably we can guess their producers? I attach two photos I made in the Legion d'Honneur Museum in Paris and link to the other examples known on Ilieff's website. Thanks, Vazov https://bulgariandecorations.com/more/royal_collection @Graf, @ilieff, @new world, @922F And another photo I took, that leads me to another question: why Bulgarian Monarchs worn mainly I grade pieces (on neck ribbon) and virtually never Grand cross sets? This one is King Ferdinand's star from a Grand cross set. Judging by the flowers in the swards handles most likely Krelty French made, right @Graf?

Dear friends (I dare say), It's a real pleasure to discuss with you again after a while and to try together to solve a new puzzle ! In my modest opinion the key would be in the following detail: when exactly the Prince has decided to switch between the golden rings with old Slavic letters and the green one with contemporary ones. If since the begging the order existed in parallel with green rings, then it's possible that this is a piece from the period of awarding the flag. Also, we don't know the dimensions of the order in the pique. If it's bigger than a regular first grade one, it might be a one-off piece or a prototype. Then why not with three stars? Or probably the Prince was still experimenting with different designs? Do any of you have an information of the year of first produced and/or spotted on photo high class order with green ring? @ilieff, regarding your post about the supposedly Prince Alexander's set, I share your opinion that the star is just added because they don't have the circle star with skulls and bones. On the photo we can see that the Prince used to wear the 7 dots "ordinary" badge with this star and not with a three dots one.

Hello gents, I start this topic because I recently discovered something curious. We all know that the "three dots" emission is quite late King Boris III one, presumably from the WWII and it exist only in I, II and IV grade. However, I recently saw the pique of the only Bulgarian army flag, awarded with the Bravery order (I grade). It's the "Samara flag" presented to the bulgarian voluntary corps as a gift from the russian command for the Russo-turkish war from 1877-1878. It was rewarded shortly after the Liberation by Prince Alexander I, on July 19th 1880 - the anniversary of the Stara Zagora battle. Imagine my surprise when I saw that the badge set in the pique of the flag is a three dots one... I attach photos of the pique and of what should be the "regular" pieces of the emission. Any ideas, speculations on the matter? @Graf, @ilieff, @Yankee, @922F, @new world

I also like them They’re pretty well done and somehow « stylisés »

Hello Gentlemen, What do you think, fake or not? Thanks for sharing your thoughts ! Best, Vazov

Hello Gentlemen, How about this example from eBay.de? The right sword is on the left one, whether it should be the other way around. Also the handles of the swords are not as they should be... Do you thing it’s a fake? Or just upgraded star without swords? Best regards, Vazov

Hello Gentlemen, I found something you may find curious. I came across this photo of very bad quality in the Polish Wikipedia. As you may see, there is a 3 grade cross, with big Lilly, like the pretended 1st Batenberg examples in V. Denkov’s book. Experienced collectors told me that the photos in this book are not reliable and such crosses are not proved to exist. Which is even more curious is the breast star, quite like 1st class one but without the ring with diamond like metallic balls. What do you think of those examples. Are they real, or maybe photoshoped ? Have anyone seen other photos of something like them? Many thanks and best regards, Vazov

Hello Gentlemen, The 7 dots are there, the years also, but the order is Godet 1941. Best, Vazov

Hello Gentlemen, Dear Graf, I didn’t ment to offend anyone but simply to protect our fellow collectors who consult our forum. Also, many thanks to you and 922F for the information. I think it’s obvious that we all are very lucky to be able to rely on both your experience and broad view ! Dear Ilief, I have no words to describe my astonishment in front of the beauty of this piece ! Magnificent ! Do you have more info about when and on which occasion it was supposed to be given to the King? I also notice that the order incrusted on it is rather 3/1 1941 model only with the 1915-1917 years instead (like the personal bravery order of the King). I only wonder if there are the 7 dots, on the ring of the central medallion, can’t really see from the pic but the lion is definitely 1941 model one. Best, Vazov

Personally I would also never buy such thing. Unfortunately, I think that such a lot can always be sold, respectively bought as a speculative asset. The sole fact that all of us, and we have quite some knowledge and experience all together, are not claiming it directly as a fake, but have some doubts, proves it. Often the intelligent men do that mistake by assuming that there’s always other possibility, that we always can eventually be wrong. Besides some part of us want it to be real. If it were real, it’d be so rare, so beautiful. Well it’s not. In this case I strongly believe we’re not wrong and it’s some kind of assembled fake. Someone have simply butchered a magnificent and rare 3/1 star from 1915. The fact that the fake is old doesn’t change anything, the fraud is not a phenomenon from the last 50 years or so

Hello Gentlemen, Happy New Year ! I saw online a very, very bizarre and unusual piece, that I’d like to here your opinion on. It’s a 1 class set of 1915 bravery order, but the star simply does not exist according to the general view. In my humble opinion it’s a « fantasy » piece and someone have incrusted a 3/1 order on a Schwerdtner made base from other star. Graf, perhaps with your broader view on the orders, you will be able to determine which type of order is the base of the star from? Any thoughts? Best, Vazov

Dear Gentlemen, As I continue relentlessly my research and speculations on the "9 dots" sub-emission or whatever it is, please find attached a photo of a 2 class badge. Now we're missing, I believe, only a first class star example and we'll have the entire 9 dots series. As you can see, the 9 dots are here, as well as the radial, sun-like red enamel in the center medallion. The green enamel is darker. However the lion is not like the small lion in the other 9 dots examples we have, but he's neither like in the classic 7 dots. I'd say something in between. The crown is a typical 7 dots one. Perhaps we're speaking of the same manufacturer and here we have a piece he made for the "mainstream" emission wether the other examples were privately made pieces. Any thoughts? Best, Vazov

Hi Gentlemen, Thanks to both of you for the extensive survey. In my modest opinion, the main common details here are three: - the big Lilly; - the particular lion; - the particular and very well finished monogram of Prince Alexander I; I know that you don't share my view that here we have a completely separate emission, but the multiple variations (sign of different manufacturers) speaks exactly of this. Furthermore, I managed to find a photo of another piece of this emission, a First Class breast star (I was sure it exists): This means that we already have found photos of the following: - 4 grade 2 class; - a star 4 grade 1 class like without years on it, just 7 dots; - 3 grade 2 class; - 1 grade badge + star; Or is it just variations of late Battenberg/ early Ferdinand emission? What do you think? Regarding the supposed 1915 emission of a 4 grade 2 class with big Lilly, here's a photo from Denkov's book. Perhaps it was ordered to the same manufacturer that made the 7 dots pieces. I personally never saw such a piece or a photo of it outside the books, have anyone did? Best regards, Vazov

Hi Ilieff, Thanks for the clarification about the 2 grade. Didn't know that. As much as I'd love it to be the first highest grade Battenberg box that we see, I think it's more of an optical illusion. When I look at it it seems to me that the high grade badge above will not fit in, weather the 3 grade on the left will fit and there'll be some free space on the sides, as it is with the normal cases. But it's simply my opinion, you're the expert in the area. For the Lilly badges, I've spotted as well this difference and cannot find explaination. The swords are also different. As well the enamel of the order on the emedals' site is bizarre. I've discussed that point with Graf and personally I have doubts that this is a restauration.... Best, Vazov

Hello, Thanks for the information! With the Ilieff's eye for the graphical details and new world's experience, I believe the matter is quite resolved. I personally have doubts as well for the regency emission of the order. Due to the historical context, I'm not sure that during those turbulent times a doctors sub category was ordered. Perhaps we can have more certainty about the complete emissions of all grades of the order, i.e. 7 dots and 1915. Graf, what do you think? However, do you think that such a conversion can be so masterfully made that no trace of cutting the swords remains? Best, Vazov

Hi Graf, Thanks for the clarifications! I'd like to take the opportunity to restate a question of yours that interests me as well. Have anyone seen a "doctors" cross from the 1941 emission? Personally I've seen it only in the books. If someone have other photos, from a museum, auction and so on, please post them. Many thanks, Vazov

Hi Ilieff, Indeed a very interesting matter. In my modest opinion this is simply the emission previous to the standard 7 dots one. The small number may be easily explicable with the smaller number of persons to reword before the Balkan wars (the serbo-Bulgarian war was a very short one and there was only a handfull of officers in the young Bulgarian army). As well we often forgot the fact that the farest we go back in time, the highest the number of pieces that are lost or destroyed. The difference between these "big lilly" crosses and the later classic 7 dots emission is a considerable one. As is the resemblance between the classic 7 dots orders of 4 and 3 grade that obviously come from the same emission. The fact that some of the orders have their edges notched and some have free standing swords is not that significant detail I think. We know that the same thing exists with the swords in the 1915 and 1941 emission, for example there are pieces of the 1915 3 grade 2 class with "fat crown" with or without free standing swords. As to the 1915 big lilly 4 grade order, I admit that I've never seen one besides in the books and it is hard to explain its presence in the 1915 emissions. Does anyone have a photo not extracted from a book? It'd be very interesting to see one. Best Vazov

Hi Graf, The collection exposed in Sweden is truly magnificent and very beautifully exposed! Do you have any more detailed photos? What I find especially curious is the box and the 2nd grade badge near the king Boris photo. I assume it's a "three dots" one. I spotted two things: 1. I believed that there are only 4 grade 2 class and 1 grade orders from this emission. One could say that the 1 grade badge without the star becomes a 2 grade, which leads me to, 2. The case: it is a 2 grade case I think, which unconditionally means that this "three dots" emission also have a 2 grade! Also, the case itself is more like Ferdinand then Boris one. It will be very unfortunate if we cannot find more photos.... Best, Vazov

Hi 922F, I think that what we see is not a 1 grade but a 3 grade 1 class of republican emission (fake or real). Best, Vazov

Hi jaeger7, Your suggestion is indeed quite logical. However, I've seen Bulgarian reward documents issued in German. Perhaps indeed if a document in German wasn't available, the German headquarters issued such sertificate as you suggest. Best, Vazov

Hi new world, I wonder if this is a fake or a low quality republican emission of the order. We know that during the second phase of WWII they've started to produce the bravery orders locally and their quality have significantly fallen. What do you think? Best, Vazov