Brian Wolfe

Hi 1812 Overture

On 21/01/2021 at 23:11, 1812 Overture said:

Okay Brian, I have sent a killer to rob your collection

Thanks for the warning, I'll make room in the freezer to store the bodies. ?

Regards

Brian

If anyone saw my collection and wanted to rob me they would probably write me a cheque out of pity and leave. ?

Seriously there is little sense in posting any photos of where I store my collection as the medals are all in shallow drawer units that I build in my shop. I counted the drawers once and there was over 300 of them. What the Hell were you thinking; my wife often asks.

Regards

Brian

Oh, well no matter we are all "well aged" here on the GMIC, good vintages each and every one.

Regards

Brian

Hi Peter,

I do hope you meant to write your "aged brain" and not "aged brian". ?

Regards

An aged Brian.?

I find it interesting how "regulations" were not always adhered to in use. At lot had to do with the personal preferences of the individual officers. Basically the introduction of the 1854 hilt (no folding section) did not mean that all officers either purchased a new sword or had the old one fitted with the new regulation hilt. I think the Gothic style is the British Infantry sword most often encountered. With the number of different rank insignia, branch of service and Monarch's ciphers found on these sword's hilts it can become a whole collecting theme onto itself. I have found infantry hilts fitted with cavalry blades; as long as the hilt and scabbard "looked" to fit the current regulations there seemed to be no official discouragement. I recall when I started collecting all of this was quite frustrating, we only had one or two books to draw information from and, of course, no Internet and therefore no forums to look to for advice and information. 

Regards

Brian

If it were mine I would spend the time and money (?) to restore this interesting sword. Another possibility might be that this was ordered "shorter" to be used as a levy or "walking out sword". Levies were official events such as balls and Royal functions. A walking out sword would be a sword use worn when not of duty and yet still in uniform and out in public. Either way I would certainly restore this sword. Just be sure not to use a steel wire wheel. better left "under-cleaned" than ruin it by removing more metal or leaving scratches in the surface.

On the topic of Sergeant's swords, the Sergeant's swords of the George IV era would most likely have pipe backed blades and not fullered. The Pattern 1854 is found with the pipe backed blades while officer's swords had the new Wilkinson Pattern (P.1854) fullered blade. Since Sergeants were issued swords I am assuming it was a matter of using up the old pipe backs as it would make financial sense since there would have been a lot of them in existence in warehouses that could not be used on officer's swords.

It's been a while since we had a sword post, thanks for posting this intriguing topic.

Regards

Brian

1 hour ago, Trooper_D said:

Is it possible it is a broken blade which has been ground down?

I doubt this as, taking some measurement from my examples, if this had been ground down the distance from the fuller to the tip would be about 2 inches. The example shown here has a proportionate distance from the end of the fuller to the tip which would indicate that the blade is as manufactured.  IMHO, of course.

Regards

Brian

It is not a sergeant's sword as they were without engraving on the blade what-so-ever. There is a possibility for the short length and that is in the practice of rank purchase during this time period. A young man with "means" could purchase a entry level officer's rank and at times this could well result in the fine young officer and gentleman being of a shorter than average height compared with other officers. While it would appear that "regulations" were hard and fast rules when you read Robson and other experts work they are giving the reader what the regulations said but not necessarily what was always practised in the field. You can imagine a shorter than average young fellow with the regulation length blade looking quite odd so a shorter blade would make sense. There are examples of Royal Navy swords being shorter than regulation as these shorter bladed swords were worn by midshipmen who were often quite young.

I would add that your sword is most interesting and well worth a place in your collection; had it come my way it would surely reside in my collection. Well done.

Regards

Brian

18 hours ago, dond said:

Are you saying you cannot be gay and happy?  I'm sure Chris would beg to differ.....?

Well from what I've seen being gay and happily married (same sex) is about as difficult as being straight and happily married.  So, either way, good luck with whatever your choice.

Regards

Brian

Peter, your opinion is worth at least a gold tuppence; right on target. This is a fantasy term created by not only dealers but family members of the soldier well after he, or she, had gone to Valhalla.  It's right up there with Ninja swords and unicorn horns. 

Of course that discounts that the original owner simply had a hate on for everyone regardless of national affiliation. 

They are interesting in that it shows what one soldier thought important and relevant and took the time to collect them. Ah, collectors "Bless 'em all, the long the short and the tall".

Regards

Brian

Since I posted this I have made some changes that works better for me. The original stands hold the sword and scabbard vertically and it was difficult to photograph. I made new stands that hold both the swords and scabbards at an angle to make taking the photos a lot easier. I used wooden blocks to hold the supports as once cropped they didn't show anyway so even though I like the first ones as being all Plexiglas these new ones work so much better. 

The photos show the stands, the stands with the sword and scabbard ready to photograph and the sword and scabbard once they have been cropped. With a little playing around with Photo Shop it is possible to remove the part of the stand that shows up in the sword and scabbard. 

Regards

Brian

Many thanks JustinG, I have modified these a bit since this post and should add those pictures.

Regards

Brian

12 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Indeed I should! but here at  home I can fawn over the goodies and say "All mine!"

Interesting how that statement and your avatar picture complement one another. ?

Regards

Brian

I have just compared yours with the only one I have in my collection and I believe yours to be authentic. Well done. 

Regards

Brian

Interesting. It seems ages since I took out my collection of Indian Police Service Medals and looked them over. I'm sure adding the COVID19 service medal to my collection will not be something that I'll see anytime soon, perhaps not even within my collecting lifetime. 

Thanks for this new information and the excuse for me to go over my medals collection once again.

Regards

Brian

Well done Chris, a very impressive display.

Regards

Brian

Very nice sword and the history that comes with it makes it a one of a kind. He may have had the final guard installed as the Pattern 1897 guard had the inner edge turned down to protect the uniform from wear commonly caused by the guard of the Pattern 1895. I would assume that he anticipated that he would only be using the sword for ceremonial purposes during his retirement. Not that it couldn't have had the guard changed as a gift, that is totally possible. It also, of course depicts the cipher of the reining monarch of that time. The leather scabbard is the field issue and I would bet there was a steel version in his possession for parade duty. 

Thanks for sharing this exceptional sword and its owner's most interesting history with us aussiesoldier.

Regards

Brian

Peter, I have been following this thread and was also looking in my WWI material for photos of these "masks" to no avail. On the other hand if I had been a betting man I would have made a small (very small) wager that these were fairly modern remakes or even fantasy items. After reading Bayern's reply I'm happy I didn't waste my money, once again proving, "Wagering bad, collecting good" is the best motto.I also wish this was the first time I was wrong. A few years ago I passed by a really nice supposed British sword at a show thinking there was never such a thing only to find out recently that it was a very rare experimental Pattern. It is so hard knowing everything while I lack so much knowledge. ?

Regards

Brian

Thanks for the kind comments Brett and Peter.

An additional tip of the hat to Peter for setting the record straight regarding the Asian flu. I like my writing to be as accurate as possible and anything medical is a long way from my comfort zone.

Regards

Brian

Many thanks for your comments and wishes for Spring's arrival. I don't know where spring is hiding as it is snowing here at the moment. Like winter, we will be happy when this virus becomes a part of history.

Stay safe.

Regards

Brian

The Meiji Period (1868 – 1912):

The end of the feudal system along with the Shugunate (War Lords) and samurai was the beginning of modern Japan under Emperor Mutsuhito. The name of his reign or nengo was Meiji. Upon his death, as with all emperors, he himself became know by the name of his reign, in this case he was known as Emperor Meiji. Many think that the end of the samurai period coincided with the restoration of the Emperor in 1868, however the wearing of swords was not abolished until 1876. Further confusing the question of the end of the samurai period was the short lived rebellion of 1877; an effort to reestablish the old ways of the Shoguns with the Emperor only in the roll of a figurehead. The defeat of the rebellion army in 1877 brought an end for all time of the Samurai era, Therefore the date of the beginning of the Meiji Period of 1868 should be called the transitional period.   The dating for what is known as Modern Swords starts with 1868 to the present.

Police Sword, second pattern, early Meiji Period:

There is not a lot to be found in the way of research on these swords that I can find and I take what little I know from Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory’s book, Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945. I have found some auction house descriptions that the police were armed with theses swords but like a lot of auction houses they are in the business to sell not to educate so you to take what they say with a grain of salt. I believe from what I do know about Japanese swords and their use, that these were dress swords for senior police officials; a true civil service dress sword. As you can see from the description below and the attached photos, while capable of being used as a sword much as the Wakizasi (short sword) there were available to the police weapons designed and made that would have better served the purpose. There was also a move to copy European swords and sabres so a traditional Wakizasi blade would not likely have been used and the traditional style blade more desirable for official and court functions. I base this supposition on my studies in Toyama Ryu Iaido in both the tactics and techniques of Classical Japanese swordsmanship.

Second Pattern Japanese Police Dress Sword Description:

Overall length: 28" (71 cm) 

Blade length: 21 11/16" (55.1 cm) (this is longer than the first Pattern)

Grip" Black same, or ray skin. (the first Pattern was white ray skin)

Back strap has Police badge (on all police swords)

The inverted cross guard has a ring in the front while the pommel incorporates a smaller one for a brown leather sword knot. The first Pattern used a chain guard.

Both First Pattern and Second Pattern blades were handmade.

Regards

Brian

Thank you Bayern for your input. Those horrible times were much worse than today, as your story reflects. Perhaps this new era where the news comes into our lives through our computers, phones and tablets on almost a minute by minute basis makes today seem almost as frightening. 

I think that we can take comfort in the knowledge that if we stay strong we will get through this.

Regards

Brian

Hello Everyone,

Great topic!

In the areas of military black powder firearms and swords I tend to be more of a preservationist than a restorationist. Helmets? Not an issue as who collects helmets anyway? I’m only kidding of course, I also have helmets; besides Peter knows where I live so even if I thought it I would never say such a thing.

 Automobiles, trucks, tanks and aircraft I like to see restored to their former glory. I’ve seen artillery pieces in “as found” condition and to be honest they just don’t have the same feel for history that “like new” holds, at least for me. Never been a fan of rust and decay. As far as what I collect it’s remove the active rust, clean and put on a protective coat of oil or Conserver’s Wax, I think it is sold under Heritage Wax in some parts of the world.

 A fellow sword collector whose collection is nothing short of jaw dropping always restores each and every sword he purchases and he has become a pro at turning out magnificent pieces. The problem for me is that using buffing wheels even with the finest of grit removes a small amount of metal. The trick is to know when to stop and this is where the problem starts. How many pieces are ruined while learning such a craft? I see a lot of blades that have been subjected to a wire wheel and then to a buffing wheel in an attempt to undo the deep scratches left by the wire wheel. These are usually on a dealer’s table for years before some novice collector makes the mistake of adding it to his or her collection; that is if it ever sells at all.

 We had these “debates” here on the GMIC many times before and each time I think we have come to the same conclusion. It is all a matter of personal choice with the overall advice to use caution and better less than running the risk of crossing the line and producing junk from what could have been a historically significant artefact.

 I hope more members will weigh in with their opinions.

 Regards

Brian

My condolences to the family and friends.

May she rest in peace.

Regards

Brian

The Pattern 1816 Baker Rifleman’s Sword

One of the more interesting and perhaps least recognized British sword is the Baker Rifleman’s Sword Pattern 1816.

Interesting in the sense that this particular sword demonstrates that the British military finally got the idea through their heads that a large bayonet or combination of sword and bayonet attached to the front of a rifle adversely affected the users aim. It should be pointed out that those in power for making such decisions lapsed back into the old ways and issued long bayonets for use on the SMLE rifle of WWI fame, not to mention the Brunswick and several other rifles. The point is that any rifle with a heavy bayonet attached is of limited use. An example of the Baker Rifle Bayonet (c. 1801, second pattern) may be seen below. The overall measurement is 28½ inches (72.5 cm) with a blade length of 23½ inches (approximately 60cm). The most obvious difference between the first pattern (P.1800) and second pattern (P.1801) is that the first pattern has a “D” shaped guard. A later Pattern (P.1806) had a saw back and this may have been the inspiration to include a saw back on the Baker Rifleman’s Sword, though this is pure conjecture on my part.

The Pattern 1816 Baker Rifleman’s Sword also qualifies, in this author’s opinion, as one of, if not the least recognized of the British swords. This was due to an error in identification made in earlier books identifying British swords, an error that was repeated by several authors since. I will not go into naming these authors or their books  because to do so is to risk besmirching their names over a simple error in what are otherwise excellent research references. These authors incorrectly identified the Baker Rifleman’s Sword as a Pioneer or Artillery Sword based mainly on the saw tooth back found on these swords. Research by the late Howard L. Blackmore published February 1997 in the Arms Collector, Volume 35 No. 1 Pages 9 – 15 and in British Military Flintlock Rifles (1740 – 1840) by De Witt Bailey Ph D., Page 143, published 2002, A. Mowbray Publishing, has shed light on the actual identification of these swords. Upon me making this information available on a well known sword forum the post was understandably met with scepticism at first. It quickly became evident, upon reading the post, as to why this sword’s identification had been accepted incorrectly for so long. One response was that they were unable to see the connection between this sword and the baker Rifle. The respondent was, of course, correct in that it is not directly associated with the Baker Rifle but with the Rifleman himself. It is a sword for the soldier and not for use on the rifle.

Pictured below

The Pattern 1816 Saw-Back Baker Rifleman’s Sword, Overall length: 26 ¾ “ (88cm), blade length: 22” (59 cm) 1½” (3.5 cm) wide, weighing 1100 gm.                                                                      Author’s collection

History of the Pattern 1816 Baker Rifleman’s Sword.

During the Napoleonic wars there appeared the famous Baker rifled musket with its improved accuracy and range, Pattern 1800. With the war seemingly over with the signing of the Treaty of Paris 30 May 1814 the British Government could now draw its attention to improving the Baker Rifle and address the problems discovered during the Napoleonic Wars. One of the glaring issues was with the sword bayonet that had been developed to be used with the Baker Rifle by the Rifle Companies. The affixing of a long (28½” or 72.4 cm) and heavy (957 gm) sword bayonet to the relatively short Baker rifle adversely affected accuracy; the very advantage of a rifled musket.

The production of the Baker Sword Bayonet continued to 1815 when it was superseded the same year by the Pattern 1815 Socket Bayonet. Following some discussion it was decided to equip the Rifle Companies with a new sidearm in addition to the new socket bayonet on 22 May 1815. While as of 12 June 1815 the proposed rifleman’s sword was approved an additional specification on 23 June 1815 was made for a saw back blade. This decision for a saw back blade was to confuse the identification of this sword as a Pioneer or Artillery sidearm in works written on the subject from 1967 right up to as late as 2013. The new pattern was put into production in March 1816 as the Pattern 1816 Saw Back Rifleman’s Sword.

Pictured below

The Baker Sword Bayonet Pattern 1801. Overall length: 28½” (72.4 cm), blade length: 23½ “ (60 cm) Blade width: 1¼” (31 mm) with a weight of 957 gm)                                                  Author’s collection

The new “improved” sidearm for the Rifle Companies was slightly shorter than the sword bayonet it replaced yet the wider blade and heavier guard with its lion head pommel weighed 143 gm heavier. This resulted in not everyone being a fan. In 1816 Colonel Norcott of the rifle brigade wrote:

“As the bayonet has been lately substituted to fix on the rifle in place of the sword [he is referencing the socket bayonet], I would suggest that it be abolished altogether; the soldier has no use for both. It was always a preventive to his easy marching from the manner in which it was slung, and is very heavy. If it be said that it must be of use upon service in order to cut wood, or to hut, I can testify that the light division in Spain carried small felling axes, purchased by the captains for their men at the particular request of the latter, ... and used them in preference to either sword or bill hook ...indeed, I scarcely ever knew the soldier [to] use his sword, but for the purpose if dividing the meat, or for clearing ground to lay on.”

Pictured below

The Pattern 1816 Baker Rifleman’s Sword lion head hilt and blade detail.                       Author’s collection

A total of 5,194 Baker Swords were supplied between 1816 and 1818 with Craven supplying 650. Thomas Craven made swords in Birmingham from 1818 to 1890, therefore the sword featured in this article would have been among the last manufactured. The exact date when these were discontinued in the field is unclear. It is interesting to note that these swords, or any sword bayonet for that matter, have never been documented as being used as a sword in any engagement, though the creation of such weapons seemed to be thought necessary by those making such decisions.

Author: Brian Wolfe, New Hamburg, Ontario Canada. April 2020

 Bibliography

 Bailey, De Witt, British Military Flintlock Rifles (1740 – 1840), Page 143.

 Blackmore, Howard L. The Baker Rifleman’s Sword – Arms Collector Volume 35, No 1 (Feb. 1997) Pages 9-15.

Latham, John Wilkinson, British Military Swords, From 1800 To The Present Day, Plate 35

 Robson, Brian, Swords of the British Army, The Regulation Patterns 1788 to 1914, The Revised Edition, Page 232 and 233, Plate 209.

 Withers, Harvey, British Military Swords, 1786 – 1912 The Regulation Patterns, Page 81.

 Pictured below

A rifleman of the North Yorkshire Militia loading his Baker Rifle. Note the sword he wears with the animal head (lion?) pommel. This period drawing would seem to verify that the sword was issued to Riflemen and not Pioneers or Artillerymen.                                                                                     Author’s collection