Stuart Bates

I forgot to add that unless someone knows to what unit the plume belongs it would be a matter of going through whatever archival material exists for Yeomanry and Light Horse etc. A mammoth task! A copy of the 1878 Volunteer Regulations may be useful as there is a complete section on Horse Furniture. Stuart

Hi Jonas, no I can't be sure whether it is regular cavalry or not. I haven't actually seen the plume but from the description given it matches the 5th Dragoon Guards helmet plume which led me to discover that prior to 1864, at least, only Hussars and later Dragoons wore throat plumes and then only in review order. That was really my question i.e. why only Dragoons and Hussars? I almost forgot that I had the Carman book and skimming through I see that the Norfolk Light Horse also had a white over red horsehair plume to the helmet. As did the 3rd Devon Light Horse. I am not at all sure if the ID of Gordon's throat plume will be established and it would, perhaps, be helpful if he could get a photo but none to date. I will check whatever Yeomanry references I have. Stuart

I also thought of the 8th Hussars but the colours were white with red underneath. However a Simkin illustration of an officer in 1914 shows the opposite. Note the Busby plume shows white over red. A mistake?

A friend just bought a cavalry throat plume and asked me if I could identify it. It is white over red i.e. red inside the white and I immediately thought of the 5th Dragoon Guards. Checking the Dress Regulations I find that there is no mention of throat plumes until the 1864 DRs and then only for Hussars. Checking my DRs gave the following results – 1911 – for Dragoons (1st, 2nd and 6th) and Hussars only 1904 – for Dragoons (1st, 2nd and 6th) and Hussars only 1900 – for Dragoons (1st, 2nd and 6th) and Hussars only 1891 – for Dragoons (1st, 2nd and 6th) and Hussars only 1883 – Hussars only 1874 – Hussars only 1864 – Hussars only Prior to this the DRs make no mention of throat plumes. Yet I have a book of prints published by Ackermann 1840 – 1855 which has several illustrations showing plumes to Lancers, and Dragoon Guards. Does anyone know when throat plumes were discontinued for Dragoon Guards, and Lancers and why? Stuart

As to Garth's badge, and this is the reason for the thread, could it be for a Rifle Volunteer Corps e.g. Westminster Rifles? Funny how we stray within a specific thread but it all adds to the sum of knowledge. Stuart

Jeff, thanks for the kudos but I just hope that my conclusion is correct. I have not heard from Prue since the post of my findings but I hope she/daughter has uncovered corroborating information. Cheers, Stuart

Jeff, I notice that you put uniforms as an interest. Have you seen my thread Uniform ID in the same section as this? On page 2 when I last looked. Any comments? Stuart

Jeff, how would you define the crown on the badge? It looks a bit like a Guelphic crown and William IV was, after all, King of Hanover. Stuart

Right, I think 1883(-1) is the number of uploads since mine and is not a date! Stuart

Jeff, I am obviously missing something here as where did I mention 1883? William IV died in 1837. Ah! I see the properties of the photo mention 1883, well I have no idea where that date came from! It certainly does not appear in my filename of that upload. Cheers, Stuart

William of Orange was titled William III so would that be indicated on the badge? I have a cross belt and pouch with a pouch badge to William IV see below. Don't you hate those intertwined and reversed cyphers?

Apparently the Home Service Helmet was discontinued for the Royal Marines in 1905 in favour of the white FSH. And the RMLI and RMA were amalgamated in 1923. Stuart

Hi Leigh, yes I remembered but never got round to posting - well spotted. Do you think they are kitted out ready for embarkation to South Africa? Stuart

The helmets would have been returned to stores just prior to 1914 and I have read that the first Aldershot Tattoo was held in 1922. I have seen this sort of "ventilation" to both the front and the rear and agree that it would not appear to have been very successful as ventilation, if that was indeed its intended use. Stuart

The Dress Regulations of 1904 (1st October) define this type of cap as the Forage Cap and contains a photograph of an example with the caption "TYPE OF FORAGE CAP". The colour was blue or green for Rifle Regiments. The DRs also say "White covers may be worn in hot weather." A Service Dress cap of similar design is also described and was made of "material to match the Service dress, of cotton, yarn-proofed." That would mean serge. Stuart

Hi Jamie, what is the significance of the date 1902 in relation to ORs' helmets? Both of your Scottish examples show cork ventilation to the front of the helmet, do you know when this was introduced? A major complaint of the HSH was its poor ventilation. The Aldershot Tattoos were held in the 1920s and '30s although I believe a tattoo was held for Queen Victoria in 1896. Stuart

After talking to my friend Peter Suciu, who has two ORs HSHs, it seems that these have the lugs on each arm of the crosspiece and are secured by cotter pins. This may explain why the crosspiece sits so awkwardly on the helmet i.e. the north and south lugs have not penetrated the helmet shell and so force the arms proud of the helmet. Only a hands on would determine this. The Dress Regulations are for officers only and do define the four arms as being attached by "four screws and nuts." The little book I have on the HSH conveniently does not define the method of attachment for an OR's. God I hate humble-pie, but at least I have learned something. I still would not touch this one though, look at the damage done to the interior where the cork is exposed by the clumsy fitting of the helmet plate. Stuart

Brian, just thought of something else. Namely that the forage caps worn by the two officers were introduced into the British Army in 1905. Stuart

Hi Bernhard, I just searched for the book via www.bookfinder.com and found quite a few listings and the prices started from Euro 14 for softcover and Euro 27 for hardcover. Regards, Stuart

Hello William, ventilation was always a major criterion for the Foreign Service Helmet but the lack of it was a major complaint of the Home Service Helmet. None of the 23 Blue/Green/Grey Cloths that I have sport any ventilation between the headband and the shell. They are all officers' versions and span QV and Ed VII to George V. I was thinking on this facet as I have seen it before on another OR's BC that I should have but didn't buy. There the cork ventilation was to the front and rear. I do not know, but I suspect that this ventilation was pre WWI. Full dress was, for the most part, not re-instated after WWI but tattoos were held at Aldershot in the 1920s and '30s and I believe that stocks of the HSH were held in stores for these events, and of course, bands still wear them to this day. I hope someone can expand on this. In many ways the HSH is a bit of a mystery as it just seems to have arrived in 1878. I have never seen any official documentation on it, other than the Dress Regulations, and I don't know anyone who has. Stuart

Brian, I asked a friend who specializes in swords and here are his thoughts for what they are worth - email 1. I think the sword would be a Rifle Regiment type, and the rifle looks like a Lee-Metford or such like email 2. I might retract that, the pommel looks a bit like that associated with the brass Gothic hilted infantry sword, which was regulation up the intro of the 1895 guard email 3. Also looks like quite an early style Sam Browne belt (possibly 1895 - 1900), the sword having a standard type metal scabbard which is fitted with sling rings; my guess would be that the sword is an earlier pattern that was already in hand or belonged to the family, otherwise one would expect to see a Sam Browne leather covered scabbard Stuart

It looks like an OR's Home service Helmet to me but I don't know anything about police helmets - that's your area Mervyn. Doing a google on police helmets gives plenty of images and it looks like they were/are pointed in front rather than being rounded. Here is a snapshot from Jones' catalogue of 1886 showing police helmets. The metropolitan has six seams whereas the country example doesn't seem to have any. The one described with metal mountings has only four. They all appear to have a pointed front peak. The cloth band around the base of the crown also looks different to the HSH in that it is narrower and has edging, although I have no idea what goes around the metro one. That is about all I can contribute to this side of the discussion, but I will re-iterate that I wouldn't touch the helmet with a barge pole! Stuart

Just to finish - any seller who plonks a helmet on the ground to photograph it should be avoided Stuart

Bernhard, just to clarify a little more, the Wolseley helmet superseded the Colonial pattern in the early years of the decade, say 1903 onwards, although it had been in use since, at least, 1896 but only by officers. This process took a few years as old stocks of the Colonial Pattern helmet would have been used before any new pattern was issued. This changeover was complete by around 1910. In the photo you can clearly see spikes on the white helmets but the Royal Marines had the ball and cup furniture - see below for an example of the Royal Marine's Wolseley Stuart

Bernhard, The Royal Marines wear today the Wolseley pattern helmet but this is the Colonial Pattern which pre-dated the Wolseley - you should buy my book Stuart