Stuart Bates

William, with regard to the interior of the Seaforth's helmet (post #30) do you remember what the corrugated ventilation was made of? I notice that it is only present to the front and rear of the helmet and, whilst I have seen this arrangement in a Home Service Helmet (photo), I haven't seen it in a Colonial pattern before. Stuart

Ranjit, I did a book search (www.bookfinder.com) and found 12 copies for sale. All at either Amazon UK or Germany. The prices range from £8 - £129 on Amazon UK and depend on new or used as well as condition. Stuart

Hi Graham, I did not doubt you, as I know that you have spent years researching the NFs. As I said, that is why I listed them to ensure that you responded. Childers gives credit where it is due and it is unfortunate that some writers ascribe undue credit for the reforms to him. This is a transcript of a speech given by Childers in 1882 where he gives full credit to Cardwell. http://freepages.gen...ganisation.html However, he must be due some accolades for implementing the reforms that Cardwell didn't get to. Stuart PS. I will never use the term "The Childers Reforms" again :(

I guess that I am wondering whether the DRs, in describing the tunic, are actually saying that regimental colours are used on collar and cuff if so allowed and the Facings para is saying that all other regiments will conform to the national colours. If so then a round-about way of going about it. Graham, I specifically put in the reference to the Northumberland Fusiliers as I knew both you and Leigh would have a comment as to its veracity. However, the link I gave, which lists such details, does cite from some "impressive" sources. Stuart

Another Wolseley, this one to the Lincolnshire Regiment. This one is interesting because of the red/blue piping to the top of the puggaree and the metal Roman numeral "X" for the 10th Regiment of Foot. The helmet is dated 1917 but an eye-witness sketch (no I don't have it) drawn in 1919 shows an officer with a khaki flash on which is embroidered in a curve "LINCOLN". Photographs taken in 1928 in Lucknow show a dark top fold to the puggaree and the "X" to the front. Now the "dark" fold could easily be red/blue. The 1929 Regulations (I would kill for a copy of them but even my best contacts don't know how to get a copy) give a blue cloth patch 3" x 2" with a red Sphinx embroidered on it and the red/blue piping. A few variations here once again! Piping was certainly used in the early decades of the 20th century and The Lincolns were obviously one of those regiments who preferred their original numeric designation rather than the territorial designations brought about by the Cardwell Reforms. The 2nd Battalion were deployed - 1919 Poona 1923 Presidency/Assam 1925 Meerut 1927 Lucknow 1928 Sudan Stuart

Hi Peter, you are correct. It is well known that regulations were flouted by Colonels and even individuals of a regiment especially when on overseas service. And the propensity to use up superseded stock before issuing new pattern replacements was actively encouraged by the War Office. However, my question relates specifically to the Dress Regulations apparent contradiction in their specification of facing colours. The description of the Tunic states"Scarlet cloth, with cloth collar and cuffs of the colour of the regimental facings..." But a subsequent paragraph Facings states "Blue cloth for Royal regiments, white cloth for English (and Welsh) regiments, green cloth for Irish Regiments." Is this an admission that some regiments did not conform to the national colours? BTW: Scottish regiments are treated separately but still have the same wording for tunics and state yellow for facings. Stuart

OK, found the website http://wapedia.mobi/en/Childers_reforms The Buffs - White, changed to buff in 1890 The Northumberland Fusiliers - White, changed to gosling green in 1899 The Norfolk Regiment - White, changed to yellow in 1905 The Devonshire regiment - White, changed to Lincoln green in 1905 etc. Stuart

Hi Graham, I used Childers because he actually implemented the reforms that I am concerned with, and you will often see the term Childers Reforms, but that is not relevant to my question. I have seen various dates for the re-introduction of regimental facings and this varied by regiment - pity I didn't record the website. However the basic problem for me is the contradictory paragraphs in the Dress Regulations. Stuart

I was checking out a scarlet infantry tunic with regimental facings, this morning, and came across a confusing contradiction between the Dress Regulations and some other references. It was the reforms of 1881 by Hugh Childers which abolished the numbering system for regiments and introduced territorial designations. At this time facing colours were rationalised to white for English and Welsh regiments, yellow for Scottish and green for Irish. However, my other reading tells me that from 1890 some regiments regained their original facings. What is interesting (confusing) is that the Dress Regs. from 1883 onwards describe the tunic collar and cuffs as being in the regimental facings but then has a separate paragraph entitled Facings which states the national colours above and blue for Royal regiments. The DRs are, prima facie, in direct contradiction to the Childers reforms. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Andy, there is a section in Collectors' Corner on the Preservation & Restoration of Military Artifacts. There may be something in there for you. If not create a new thread. Failing that I would suggest contacting the National Army Museum and asking them. Or you may simply google "conservators" and find someone to help that way. Unless there are specialist dry-cleaners I wouldn't go down that route. However, you now have a contact at the Guard's Museum so why not ask him for help? Stuart

I looked up my Army Lists from 1914 to 1920 and found the following - No L.N. Gibbs but Lancelot M. Gibbs commissioned as 2nd Lt Coldstream Guards 7 Dec 1910Promoted Lt 19 Jul 1913Promoted Capt. 17 Jul 1915Does not appear in the 1920 ListFrom the London Gazette, he went from Captain to acting Major to Acting Lt Colonel and back to Capt. between 2nd Dec 1916 and 23rd May 1917. Stuart

Hi Will, don't know whether vou already have this information but here is what I found so far - Herbert de Haga Haig 1. Commissioned Lieutenant 11th Sep 1873 2. Promoted Captain 8th Jan 1885 3. Promoted major 1st July 1893 4. Promoted Lt Colonel 1st Oct 1900 5. Promoted Colonel 10th Feb 1904 6. Removed from Corps 10th Feb 1904 but still on active list 7. On half pay 1st Oct 1905 8. Ditto 1906 list 9. Does not appear in the 1911 List The 1895 Army List shows him as being the Adjutant of the Newcastle on Tyne Engineer Volunteers – date 24th May 1892. The 1900 List shows him as being in Bengal. The 1903 List shows him as being Garrison Engineer, Military Works, Madras. Hart's list of 1903 has this entry – "Lt.Colonel H. de H. Haig served during the rebellion in the North West. Territories of Canada in 1885 as Assistant Quarter Master General, and was present in the engagement at Fish Creek and at the capture of Batoche (mentioned in despatches, Medal with Clasp)." Stuart

I have emailed Bluebell asking if there was a difference between the 1st and 2nd Bn pipers' slider badge. Let's hope I get an answer - I mean a helpful one Stuart

I was wrong on the badge. I just found one on Bluebell Militaria and the slider is almost at the base of the top point of the mullet. Interestingly it is described as "The 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) Piper's headdress badge" Stuart

I checked through my Army Lists 1878 - 1903 but could find no 2nd Lt Niall MOYNAHAN. I haven't got every year between those dates but the spread of 10 lists should have yielded a result. I also checked the London Gazette but that turned up nothing. Stuart

According to my reading the rank of 2nd Lieutenant was introduced into the British Army in 1871 or 1877. I shall check through my Army Lists. The 1875 list still shows ensigns, the 1878 list shows sub-lieutenants and 2nd Lieutenants so 1877 would appear to be the correct date. Stuart

Peter, still drooling after all these years Stuart (see post #3)

More fool me. Looking at the tin that the helmet came in - it says Army Ordnance Department! Stuart

Just found out that Militia and Territorial Battalions were not authorised to wear the famous back badge. The scroll beneath the Sphinx on the helmet plate was blank rather than having the word "Egypt". This was usual for non-regular battalions.

Same reason that officers dressed more like the men, left their swords behind and stopped wearing Wolseley helmets.

I know that I have read somewhere that the GGs had a red and blue cockade on their helmets but damned if I can remember where. There is an illustration in the Osprey Book on the Sudan campaign which shows a private of the GGs, dated 1898, with a black cloth grenade flash to the right hand side of his helmet. Now that cannot be correct unless there was a white plume on the left hand side! Certainly the 2nd and 3rd Battalions serving in the Boer war wore a white plume to the left side. The Coldstream Guards wore a red plume to the right hand side. I think these plumes were rather quickly removed. Stuart

Patrick, thanks for that. I am now watching it. I suspect that we should be using PMs for this type of message. Stuart

Damn! I haven't received my copy of Formation Sign yet One of the problems of living on the other side of the world. I told you that it was well worth joining the Military Heraldry Society At last, something solved Stuart

William, in post #27 you mention "the Omdurman flash". What do you mean by this? There wasn't a single flash for the army as a whole. Rather, I think, Colonels and regimental tradition determined what each regiment chose. They were certainly used in India well before this. I suspect that the flashes for the Sudan Campaign were taken into the Boer War. Ron Kidd wrote an illustrated article on flashes of the 2nd Boer War for the Formation Sign magazine of the Military Heraldry Society. Stuart

Just received the 1813 Army List and Thomas Hayes resigned from the army in November of that year.