Stuart Bates

It is interesting to note that the Royal Navy lost only 3 battleships, as opposed to battlecruisers, during WWII.The HMS Royal Oak, a Royal Sovereign class dreadnought, the HMS Prince of Wales, a King George V class and the HMS Barham, a Queen Elizabeth class, which was a modernized warship from World War One. HMS Barham was commissioned on August 1915, she displaced 29,150 tons and 862 men went down with her on that fateful day in November 1941. Stuart

The slouch hat apparently originated in the English Civil War and was defined as being a soft hat (felt?) with one side pinned up. It was issued to trroops during the 2nd Boer War partly because of the shortage of cork for helmets and partly because the troops preferred it. Cork was expensive and supplemented by wicker helmets. The "bush hat" as the British called it was worn during the India/Burma campagain and also in South East Asia. The Ghurkas were first issued with it in 1901 but no longer wear it on active service. We must not forget the New Zealanders who called it the "Lemon Squeezer" because the crown was "pinched" in four places. I think this was called the "Montana Peak" in the US forces and is still worn by drill instructors. And the hat was also used in this latter form by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It got around. Stuart

I forgot to say that the Great Escape is on TV tonight but I will not be watching it Stuart

Brett, now that is a very interesting observation and one that I cannot disagree with. But the misuse of real film footage still rankles. Stuart

I was just watching the History Channel, a favourite (sort of), and was invited to believe that HMS Barham was sunk off the African coast when the Americans landed at Casablanca. Why is it that this ship is featured, almost always out of context, in documentaries when a spectular explosion is desirable? That's a rhetorical question, but I do get a bit peeved at the misuse and therefore the disrespect that accompanies this "cheap" tactic. The HMS Barham was sunk on 25 November 1941 by U-331 yet she features in almost every naval doco from WWI onwards. Nothing will rectify this miscarriage but I was moved to finally make a statement. Stuart

Shams, I think you have got it correct. The 1846 DRs are clear on Field Officers down to Major but make no mention of Captains etc. Another reference did state that Captains and Lieutenants were indistinguishable. Epaulettes are not mentioned for Hussars, so we can assume that they did not wear them, but as to the cuff embellishments I am afraid no mention. I trawled through some books trying to get a handle on single vs. double vs. no epaulettes but my brain began to hurt so I gave up. A very difficult area indeed. Stuart

TS, That gels with the 1811 Russian date but I note that the description of the 45th uniform states "For display purposes I have photographed the set with an officers undress forage cap " and it is a pity that it doesn't give details of the cap itself. It is so obviously true that armies copied other (successful) armies in the matter of uniforms. I just had a quick look through the NAM's book A Desperate Undertaking and there is a lovely photo of General Pennefather wearing a forage cap very much the forerunner of the Staff Pattern of later years. Perhaps we had better move on to footwear as I never expected this thread to have legs Stuart

Jonas, yes it is indeed Boris Mollo's book and I can't comment on the Torin cap but perhaps it was a matter of what form of dress was being worn, e.g. service dress, undress, which determined the headwear. I started out wondering when the round forage cap was replaced by the staff pattern for the Regular Army and perhaps should not have brought in the Yeomanry. However, I just did some checking that I should have done much earlier and that was to check the 1904 Dress Regulations. The round forage cap has disappeared, as has the pillbox, and only the Staff Pattern forage cap and Glengarry are mentioned. So this means that by 1904 the round forage cap, the pillbox cap and the field cap had officially disappeared, at least for officers. According to Brian Davis in British Army Uniforms & Insignia of World War Two the field service cap was re-introduced with the advent of battle-dress in 1937. I am afraid that I am ignorant on the subject of the Torin cap but without going off on a tangent what was the difference between the Torin and the Field Service cap? As to being a novice most of us, who haven't served, are as nothing is easy with the British Army Stuart

I received today a book on the Kent Yeomanry and it has a photo of a group of officers of the East Kent Mounted Rifles at Shorncliffe, 1901 all wearing the peaked cap. Notable also is the inclusion in the photo of a Regular Army Officer wearing the khaki version with his service dress. There is also a photo of ORs c1905 wearing the pillbox cap with "walking out" dress. I guess that this ends the thread with the peaked forage cap replacing the round cap over a period c1900 - 1907. Stuart

I agreed with you Mervyn as you can see from the quote above. However, I am convinced that the original version of the peaked cap that we know today was of Russian origin and maybe Prussian. The paintings that I posted prove this and are backed up by the Wikipedia quote - pity it does not quote any sources. Everyone's a winner Stuart

Simon, the badge is attached by both methods. The lower part has two straight lugs which are bent over inside the cap and the top part is sewn to the cap. Stuart

Very interesting Brian. They look like a modern day baseball cap or even the jockey cap which was in use in the early 1800s and also formed the basis of the Tarleton helmet. I did see a jockey cap on another forum and I think it was made of boiled leather. Stuart

Graham, very interesting as I see a Brodrick cap centre standing. So it would appear that the peaked Forage cap was in use at least as early as 1903 and co-existed with the Brodrick. What a tangled web the British Army weaved Stuart

And here is Blucher. I guess that this all answers Chris' question as to the origins of the peaked forage cap. Russian.

Well this is informative from Wikipedia but has no references to check. The peaked cap has been worn by Russian Army officers (other ranks had the same cap without a peak) as a new type of forage cap since 1811. Another early appearance of the peaked cap appears to have been in the Prussian Army of 1814-15 when Feldmarschall Prince Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher and other officers wore it as a field cap in place of the cumbersome shako of the time. Throughout the nineteenth century peaked caps were the characteristic ordinary duty headdress for officers of both the Prussian and Russian Armies. In 1856 a form of peaked cap was adopted by petty officers of the Royal Navy, in imitation of an undress headdress worn by officers from as early as 1827. The British Army adopted peaked caps in 1902 for both the new khaki field dress and (in coloured form) as part of the "walking out" or off duty wear for other ranks. Stuart

Benny, a closeup of the cap badge. Stuart

Mervyn, these are early examples of the forage cap and are indeed similar to the peaked cap we know today. The forage cap went through several design changes, including the pillbox cap, and finally emerged as the peaked cap. I guess my question is a bit esoteric and was prompted by that other post by Gerard. It would appear that Simon is correct in that the cap was copied from the Royal Navy. I got this snippet of information by googling "Brodrick Cap" and ending up on Wikipedia. Pity Graham is not in town to access his photo collection and where is Leigh ? Stuart

Graham, thanks, 1902 has always stuck in my mind but I can't remember where it came from. However, I thought that the Brodrick cap was introduced in 1902 and replaced by a peaked cap in 1905. Chris, the basic question was when it replaced the round style of forage cap in the British Army. Now as to its origins is another question entirely but that Russian officer in the painting should be a clue. Stuart

The latest addition - a Volunteer Battalion Officer's forage cap to the Lancashire Fusiliers. It is in excellent condition and has a superb silver and metal bullion badge.

Here is an interesting photo of "Australian Volunteers of the Imperial Bushmen" during the 2nd Boer War. It is undated but the first contingents went to South Africa in early 1900. It shows them wearing a soft khaki cap roughly in the shape of the Staff Pattern. Stuart

I am sure that the cap referred to by Carman was indeed the Staff Pattern. I say this because Yeomanry units were wearing the style from at least 1903 onwards. I was hoping that someone has dated photos - where is Leigh? Stuart

Simon, I had pondered the Navy side but did not pursue it. Therefore quite likely that the Army followed the Navy on this one, but that begs the question as to when the Navy adopted the style. They were still wearing the old style well into the First World War. Stuart

Simon, and I thought I was alone on this one BTW: where have you been? Stuart

I came across this painting entitled The Relief of the Light Brigade by Richard Caton Woodville painted in 1897. It clearly shows a Russian officer wearing a peaked cap. Go Figure Does this mean that they were around in the 1850s or that Caton Woodville was taking a licence? Anyway it does indicate that they were around at least as early as 1897. Stuart

Yeomanry units began adopting the peaked forage cap from at least 1903 onwards. Stuart