Stuart Bates

A lovely "station master" forage cap to the West Yorkshires -

It came with the corresponding pillbox cap and makes a nice combo. Apologies for the quality of the images but I stopped trying to master Photoshop when I met my friend Nick who is a pro photographer.

A grey cloth to the Eton Volunteer Rifles -

Graham, I have visited "The Soldiers of the Queen" many times since I joined GMIC and it is a wonderful repository of historical photographs. I wish that I had taken a greater interest in photos rather than being so firmly focused on helmets. But having said that I have a good collection of period photos, pity is that I feel constrained to use them because they were given to me "in confidence" by an author who will probably never publish! Stuart

Graham, what you say is all present or correct. My background in software means that I need to know the answer, otherwise it just doesn't work! This one is a doozy and I guess we will never know the answer. It is interesting to have the possibilities thrown around but... Stuart

The apparent absence of any holes, either for the crosspiece or the helmet plate, indicates either that the helmet is a FSH or a HSH direct from stores. Here I am assuming for the latter that the furniture and plate would have been added by the regimental tailor or armourer. The 1st Battalion were in India 1894-1909, four years after the HSH was discontinued for them, and the 2nd Battalion were in India 1881-1895 so unlikely that they ever had the HSH. I give in. This one is too hard. I don't know how or why he has such a helmet but I still think it is a FSH. Puggarees were always bulky towards the bottom, that is the nature of the beast when many pleats are required. Puggarees could be up to 24ft (7.4m) long so no wonder they could be bulky. Anyone got another dead horse to flog Stuart

Apparently the letters and numbers associated with the WD stamp indicated the depot which stored the helmets etc. prior to their being sent to the regiments serviced by that depot. In earlier times the full year of approval of the item by the WD was used but I don't know when this ceased. Stuart

Graham, no my reference comes from Ron Kidd in an issue of the Formation Sign magazine of the Military Heraldry Society. If you like I can try to get more details from Ron. Leigh, the pagri is a marvelous example but I am not convinced that its removal would produce a HSH. The HSH was replaced by the shako in 1890 but what would it be doing in India of a later time. I am sure that I read somewhere that the HSH was sometimes worn with a khaki cover - another troublesome fact. Can anyone see the holes that would have accepted the HSH crosspiece for the spike? The helmet may have added a bit of swank but would have been terribly hot in the Indian climate. Any consensus on the date of the photo? According to regiments.org - the 1st Battalion Cameronians were in - Rhaniket from 1897-1899 Lucknow from 1899-1904 the 2nd Battalion Cameronians were in - Rhaniket from 1889-1892 This would indicate the 2nd Battalion if it is indeed a HSH. But since I think it a FSH of the early 1890s then 1st Battalion again. Stuart

Graham, this is a bit off topic but in one of my references I found that the red cloth 'V' section worn above the puggaree by the Northumberland Fusiliers was officially sanctioned by the War Office on 23rd October 1903. If you like I can attempt to get more details as I know the author of this reference. I presume that the NFs with this helmet would have worn a khaki cover to provide camouflage during the 2nd Boer War. Stuart

Graham, I agree it is almost certainly black. I did not mean to imply that it would be as for a normal FSH. Stuart

A summary to date given to Prue, Details in the painting 1. The sword is of the 1796 Infantry Officers' pattern which was superseded by the 1822 pattern. This therefore dates the painting to roughly 1796 – 1822 2. A single epaulette to the right shoulder was introduced for Battalion Company officers in 1768 but the gold or silver bullion was added in 1810 or 1811. Battalion Company officers were Ensigns, Lieutenants and Captains. This dates the painting to say 1810 – 1822 3. The shoulder belt plate would have identified the regiment precisely but no details can be definitely determined from the painting 4. However the uniform facings i.e. the collar, cuffs and lapels are a glaucous colour. Glaucous being a pale grayish or bluish green. Given the name of Thomas Hayes this could be the 2nd Ceylon Regiment formed in 1807 and disbanded in 1822. Thomas Hayes 1809 Army List March - Ensign 18th Feb 1808, in Royal South Gloucester Militia April - Lieutenant in Royal South Gloucester Militia London Gazette 1st August 1809 Gazetted as Lieutenant 3rd Feb 1809 London Gazette 24th July 1810 Exchanged into the 2nd Ceylon Regiment as 2nd Lieutenant 2nd Ceylon Regiment Uniform: scarlet; facings: light green (later dark green, 1801-1818), yellow (1818-1822); This then dates the photo to 1810 – 1818. The regiment was renamed the 2nd Ceylon from Ceylon Native Infantry in 1807. London Gazette 11th May 1811 102d Ditto, Second Lieutenant Thomas Hayes, from the 2d Ceylon Regiment, to be Ensign, vice Wharton, who exchanges. This means that Thomas Hayes left the 2nd Ceylon and joined the 102nd Regiment who were in England at this time. This then dates the photo to 1810 – 1811. 102nd Regiment Uniform: scarlet: facings yellow. London Gazette 11th July 1812 102d Ditto, Ensign Edmund Champion, from the 4th Garrison Battalion, to be Ensign, vice Hayes, who exchanges This means that Thomas Hayes left the 102nd Regiment and joined the 4th Garrison Battalion. 1814 Army List to February 1814 Does not appear. General The 102nd Regiment was serving in New South Wales, and possibly Van Diemen's Land, up to 1810 when it was sent home in disgrace, although some elected to stay in Australia. It was not uncommon for officers to take leave in Australia from India and presumably Ceylon. This may explain why he exchanged into the 102nd having made friends among the officers and others. The New South Wales Corps (renamed to the 102nd Regiment in 1808) was formed in England in 1789 as a permanent regiment to relieve the marines who had accompanied the First Fleet. The regiment, led by Major Francis Grose consisted of three companies to begin with and due to the remoteness and unpopularity of the posting they were comprised of officers on half pay, troublemakers, soldiers paroled from military prisons, soldiers enlisted from general prisons such as Savoy Prison, ex convicts in New South Wales and Marines who wished to remain. If we assume that Thomas Hayes having left the army, say in 1813 a relatively short stay, emigrated to Australia then the proximity to the East Indies and Ceylon would have made his entry into the spice trade easier. PS. I use Australia to avoid repeating New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land.

I am not so sure that it is a Home Service Helmet, but that would certainly explain what a Green Cloth helmet was doing in India. But to me it has more the shape of the Foreign Service Helmet. Graham, by the strengthening to the outer edge I presume you mean the leather edging to the brim. For officers this applied to the Foreign Service Helmet but I think the men had khaki drill edging. The ORs' HSH, of course, had all leather edging. The HSH did not have internal hooks for attaching the chinchain or chinstrap whereas the FSH always did. The hooks could have been added at a regimental/battalion level and the puggaree may hide the clues, i.e. the fittings for the chinchain rosettes. I can't make out the seams - there were 4 on the HSH and 6 on the FSH. That may be a seam at 2 o'clock but can't see any others. Both styles of helmets had a seam at that position. The badge is so low on the puggaree that I doubt it is of the slider variety. It is probably fixed to the puggaree itself and doesn't perforate the helmet shell. But then again, maybe the slider was shortened and inserted between pleats of the puggaree rather than between the shell and the puggaree. The badge sitting proud of the chinchain on one side would indicate that it was not firmly fixed in place. The ones I have sit firmly on the puggaree and are not easily shifted to the extent shown. Help! Stuart

I found a Baker, John E R on the National Archives medal cards. He was a gunner in the RFA. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=1252964 I searched for Baker J between 1914 and 1919 and it returned 1647 results. And there were plenty of Baker Js, so I searched for 58349 and got 23 results with medal cards only one of which was Baker J + E.R. as above. Pity that the Wolseley has been roughly treated although I would still be interested in a look at the interior. Stuart

OK, I think I have answered one of my questions. The London Gazette of 22nd August 1924 states that George Constantine Phipps was to be a probationary Lieutenant on 30th July 1924.

I looked up G.C. Phipps in the Army Lists that I have and came up with the following - 1923 - does not appear 1926 - Lieutenant 30/7/24 RAMC and stationed at Nowshera, now the chief city of the Nowshera district of the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan 1929 - Captain 30/1/28 IMS and stationed at Razmak, now one of the three sub-divisions of North Waziristan 1930 - Captain RAMC and stationed at Cherat, a hill station in the Nowshera district of the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan 1933 - Captain 30/7/27 IMS 1937 - Major 30/7/36 IMS 1938 - Major IMS Were Medical Officers commissioned as Lieutenants rather than 2nd Lieutenants? Going from 2nd Lt to Lt in less than a year seems improbable. Two dates are given for his promotion to Captain 30/1/28 in the 1929 and 1930 lists and 30/7/27 in the 1933 list. A mistake or what?

Here is the interior. It clearly shows the poor condition of the helmet and contains the ink name G.C. Phipps. At first I thought the headband was a retro fit and glued in place, caveat emptor stuff, but it has the usual Vero's Detachable headband.

Just received this Wolseley to the Indian Medical Service (1922 - 1945). It is in terrible condition but has the flash, and a section of cork exposed which clearly shows the two sheets of cork laminate. The flash is light blue at the extremes but that colour seems to have faded and I have noticed this on other flashes which used light blue. The IMS consisted of senior Indian Medical Officers with British medical qualifications, and British Medical Officers and treated Viceroy's Commissioned Officers and Indian Other Ranks. The flash shown below was authorised, for the Khaki Solar Pith Hat, by Indian Army Order 991, of December 1935, but this same order abolished the Wolseley helmet for the IMS. The flash would have been applied to existing helmets as no-one ever threw away a good piece of equipment just because a replacement was authorised.

Well a friend told me that the colour is glaucous! That is, of a pale grayish or bluish green. This tends towards my second Thomas Hayes. Now Prue is going to investigate him on Ancestory and it appears that her man went to Tasmania. To be continued...

This is confusing as Kipling & King give a helmet plate of 1896 for the Army Ordnance Department (#1020) which has a monogram of AOD to the centre. Then they give, also for 1896, a helmet plate for the Army Ordnance Corps for Other ranks (#1021) followed by a description of a plate for officers also under the date of 1896. They then show a post 1901 plate (#1022a) which is the one on my helmet. I guess that K & K are wrong and my helmet is Army Ordnance Department. BTW: regiments.org gives the change to Royal in 1922. Is nothing sacred? Stuart

A home service helmet to the AOC I should have specified the Army Ordnance Department - see next two posts. Thanks Leigh.

Very nice photo Leigh. Interesting that the chinchain has no backing. The 1st Battalion was in Lucknow in 1906-1908 and the 2nd Battalion in Bareilly 1892-1896. Both locations listed on the reverse of the photograph. Given the QVC I would say 2nd Battalion and by 1906 the Colonial pattern helmet would probably have been replaced by the Wolseley. Stuart

I do not think it can be the Thomas Hayes previously mentioned as he was promoted to Major in 1802, and had the rank of Lt Colonel in 1809 and Colonel in 1813. But I found another Thomas Hayes - London Gazette 11th May 1811 102d Ditto, Second Lieutenant Thomas Hayes, from the 2d Ceylon Regiment, to be Enfign, vice Wharton, who exchanges. 2nd Ceylon Regiment Uniform: scarlet; facings: light green (later dark green, 1801-1818), yellow (1818-1822); London Gazette 11th July 1812 102d Ditto, Ensign Edmund Champion, from the 4th Garrison Battalion, to be Ensign, vice Hayes, who exchanges 102nd Regiment Uniform: scarlet: facings yellow. 1814 Army List Does not appear Could the facings in the painting be green? The 2nd Ceylon is in keeping with the spice trade mentioned before and it was not uncommon for officers to take leave in NSW at this time. The 102nd was stationed in NSW until 1810 and this might explain why he exchanged into that regiment. Since he does not appear in the 1814 Army List we could assume that, having retired, he went to NSW or the East Indies and traded in spices. All of this hangs on the facings and I am colour blind. Stuart

Yep! Time to let it go and hope somebody else can take over. I will persist with the other one when my next lot of Army Lists arrive. Stuart

I have ordered a few earlier Army Lists (i.e. pre 1815) and hope to get more info. on Thomas Hayes. Back in a few days. Stuart

Leigh, you are tenacious to an extreme! I don't think the lamb's head is turned to the viewer - assuming that it is a lamb. But the problem will always be the contrary information. Would an enquiry to the regimental museum or NAM be worth the trouble? Stuart