Peter J

Thanks Pierce. Apparently there isn't consensus amongst the various authors whether it should be labelled Grand Cross or 1.class, hence the rephrase (and it cought your attention). I'm just trying to find the pieces of info, in order to build myself a plausible scenario.

Please allow me to rephrase that to Red Cross decoration 1st class. In addition to this inquiry, what about the DAO Grand Cross (not the Sonderstufe mit Brillanten)?

Up!

Gents, does anyone know when Mussolini was awarded his Grand Cross of the German Red Cross (1934-37)? cheers Peter

3.Stufe.

Of course in happened. The method was similar to how the Germans marsched out the natives into the Kalahari dessert and starved them to death. What's rarely mentioned in conjunction with the Armenian episode is the reason for these dramatic occurances.

The Hoffstätter version with raised letters and orthodox pin.

Defective colour-sight is a bummer and red can be problematic. Thanks for your help John, you're a very alert Moderator As promised, the tombak Deumer MS with vertical pin.

I tried to post one with a vertical pin, but after the upgrade I'm totally lost

Not bad an attempt, but still IMO a fake. Godet in Berlin made the fanned type in silver (21 on the ring), although pieces is bronze were claimed to have been found in the remnants of the Zimmermann factory fire. A recently offered Sonderstufe was also claimed to be produced by yet another producer (Rath in Munich if I remember correctly), but with no real evidence to support this statement. Due to the upgrade of this forum, I still haven't figured out how to post an image, hence I can't help you with a comparison image. The major differences are: Wrong design of the heads, wrong design on the ball-attachment, pointy shape of the fan, missing outer feathers on top of the feathers, missing "ribbon" between the claws, incorrect "ribbon" below the swastika, wrong swastika design. The markings should always be positioned on the reverse, where the eagles are facing the right. cheers Peter

Kasle, thanks for sharing your thoughts and presenting an IMO plausible scenario. I suppose it's safe to assume there were no actual rules or regulations prior to the LDO. I do have an excerpt from one of Doehle's books, giving an account for the correct wear of miniatures on miniaturschnalle, including the internationally adopted custom of adding pieces of ribbons and rosettes for identifying the classes. How this was done practically has always been an enigma for me, as I've never seen such a piece. The question that started this inquiry was whether or not a single EK-device was being viewed as a EK1. Perhaps this was correct for the period prior to LDO, but I doubt that was the case later on. The forementioned publication from Schickle specifically state: "Auflagen sind verboten bei: Neues Eisernes Kreuz 2.Klasse". In addition the LDO made a regulation a few months later, presenting the only way of wearing a single EK2 miniature (other than as a 16mm cross on a chain or/and miniaturschnalle) i.e. a "kleine bandschleife". My very personal conclusion: if a specific device was banned as a specific decoration, I place my bet on the assumption that it was also used as such. Just my two bits

Kasle, can you please tell us more about those "unofficial" rules i.e. before the regulations established by the LDO?

Eric, I assume this guy felt the same way

Greg, I've shown this piece before, but the difference is interesting. It has the same rectangular rod with a hole in the center, but no ring for ribbon(s).

Here's another combo with similar setup for illustration.

Chris, was I vague? A selection of ribbon bar devices were banned from production in spring 1941, yet another batch was approved of at the same time.

"The 1914 ones were actually worn at the time, am sure the 1939 was highly unofficial!!" Chris, what was official before the institution of i.g. the LDO? I'm not sure if these devices for wear on WW2 ribbons were indeed sanctioned, probably they were. Why else ban them from production in Spring 1941 (according to a pamphlet from O. Schickle).

Joe, I wouldn't bet my life on 850. Like you say, 830 seems more plausible and perhaps my old eyes are playing me a trick.

Hi Joe, I believe it reads "850". From the back of my head, I'm not sure about two EK´s on the same chain on any contemporary photo. I've seen this combination on many occasions though and the same goes for the single sided EK1.

Thanks Lars, just the analytic comments a appreciate getting on this forum Regardless of questionable provenance regarding the chain iyself, I lack 5 of the 6 minis and was thrilled to receive them, You as a genuine "connoisseur" might be thinking twice before mounting this chain amongst your other minis, but we're all different personalities walking the world, thank God!

Thanks for the comments guys. The Merit Cross has both centers separately attached to the cross and I can't find any illustrations of the ornamented agraff, although I've been told they exist.

Santa was nice to me last Christmas. This chain was delivered from a dear friend in Germany. There are a few aspects worth commenting on, feel free to elaborate your thoughts

Thanks again John. That image is soo much better than the one shown in my 2nd edition of Foreman's book

Thanks John. I've never handled any of these rare pieces, hence comparing images is my only option. I fully realize this piece have major differences compared to any other cross I've seen i.g. loop and rivets. The cross in Niemann's book appears to be a text-book version with hollow rivets and a leaf-pattern on the wreath. On the other hand, the cross in Angolia's book has a correct loop, but the same small swastika, non-existent leaf-pattern and rounded rivets. I've no illusions of "my" cross being an original, I'm merely interested in who might have produced it and more importantly, when.

Gents, best wishes on the new year. An acquaintance of mine asked me to scan this Olympia Cross 1st class and ask for opinions. Given the missing rivets and the configuration of the loop, I think it's safe to assume it's not an original awarded type. With that said, I believe there is some age attached to this piece and that it initially was gilded bronze (as per given specifications). So could this be a display-piece for i.g. the Olympia arenas or just a fairly good modern fake?