ccj

On 02/04/2024 at 02:33, Chris Boonzaier said:

OK, a bit of Devils advocate needed here please….

About three years ago a friend was visiting a Schloss in Bavaria which had been the ancestral home of a Graf from about 1820ish to 1920ish.

The historical society there is mainly interested in the history of the buildings, not so much the occupants throughout the ages.

There is a tiny museum with objects related to the Graf family, just y few odds and ends, but it is not the focus of their work. One of the items in the cases is the dogtag and pouch to the youngest son who was killed serving as a Lt at Verdun in July 1916.

In the offices of the society my friend spotted a fieldgrey tunic for a leibregiment Lt. he asked the chairman of the society where it came from, and he had no idea. It had been in the possession of the society for many years, but no one knew its origins and added to that, it is not the kind of thing their museum concentrates on. When my friend asked he said they may consider selling it.

My friend put me in contact wit them, I helped identify it as a leiber regiment and confirmed for them that the son served in the Leibregiment. We chatted for some time and I was informed that if they could not find any proof that it belonged to the young Graf they had no need for it.

I tried to help by looking up the few photos of him available, but none with the jacket.

My info to them was, I think it very possible, maybe even probable it was his, but there was no way of proving it either way as there was no name or tailor label.

After a few years the association voted to sell it and we agreed on a price which was good for them financially, and good for me as I really wanted the jacket.

Although I will never prove it, here is my thinking…

1)      A field grey Leiber jacket is pretty rare. The Bavarian Army had maybe 150 (200?) different units from active, reserve, ladwehr, different branches of service… I am going to go out on a limb and say, if you found a random Field Grey Officers tunic in Bavaria, there will be less than a 1% chance it is from the Leibregiment.

2)      If you live near Würzburg, there are probably potentially more 9^th IR than other Regiments, if you live near Neu Ulm maybe a good chance for 12 IR… but the Leigbregiment was from men chosen from all over Bavaria, so the items would be spread all over Bavaria.

3)      Taking the rarity into account, finding a Leiber Tunic to a Lt in the house where a Leiber LT lives points towards the probability that it was the tunic of the person who lived there. Especially because the dog tag and bag he was wearing when he was killed were there as well.

4)      The tunic is early war, with Swedish cuffs worn by some officers in 1915, I have seen them in 1916-17 photos, and there are certainly a handful still around in 1918, but I am thinking most of these would have been on their last legs by them. As the jacket in Question is still in tip top condition, it seems to be logical that it could have belonged to an officer killed earlier in the war.

5)      Of course, wishful thinking on my side, and I know it will never be proved, but I am going to go with the “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck” thing and say, for me I am pretty damned sure it was the jacket of the young Graf…

No need to spare my feelings here… what do you think?

Your assessment seems reasonable. Would you be able to share the name of the Graf at some point?

I too wonder for both classes. 

Would  anyone be able to help me narrow the list of possible candidates to the original wearer of this tunic?

Thanks to Glenn for the list.The man would have had an EKI, ano9ther great badge, maybe would badge. And a long medal bar judging from the loops. There are enough loops for a 10 old style Bavarian, a 12 place wartime ribbon bar, or a roughly 8 place medal bar.  

Hippolyt von Kiliani (7 January 1914) 
Konrad Prinz von Bayern (10.9.14) à la suite
Heinrich Rhomberg (3 November 1914)
Eckart von Pappus und Trazberg, Frhr. zu Landenberg und Rauhenzell (19 May 16)
Heinrich Prinz von Bayern (serving with the Infanterie-Leib-Regiment)
Karl Ritter von Gonnermann (18 January 1917)
 

I know there are still some old hand historians still on this forum. Good ol Rick would have spent hours helping, rest his sole… I sure miss Rick L.

Some enamel

Austro-Hungarian and Bulgarian 

Rare Bulgarian Bravery Order G3/C1

Bavarian MMO 

Bavarian MMO2x

Red Eagle Order 

Nice job Chris… don’t know how you do it.

It looks like a very nice early war tunic. Post more images if you dare

I have two, one was the first imperial order purchased from Detlev. It has damage but I like it. Sorry for the quality but its behind glass.

WONDERFUL RIBBON BARS. 

I LOVE RIBBON BARS AND THOSE ARE TOP NOTCH

Thanks Rick,

I haven’t seen all episodes of the series. I need to check it out. I also need to look bad at your traveling circus thread again. That one should be pinned so its easy to find imo.

Is that the example you showed with white enameled reverse?

Nice, I’m fond of Baden Dragoon Regt 22.
 

I acquired a spiked helmet for the regiment not long ago myself 

Wonderful

One hole is for a single post award and the lower was intended for a 2 post award as evidence by the staining and imprint inside on the lining it appears this officer may have worn a wound badge with dual screw post or another award with a dual screw post that also had an oval back plate. I have the advantage of knowing what it looks like inside the lining.  

I don’t have such a badge collection, so why decided on a screw back FA. 
 

The tunic has three sewn holes for badges. I assume in order to screw back awards. I believe most often the holes were for screwback awards, and sewn loops were for pin back.

Thanks, I’m sure someone here knows the maker based on the characteristics.  I’m not a screw back award expert.  My. Main reason for searching out an example is to display on an M16 Bavarian bluse. 
 

Hi, what’s your opinion on this screw back award.

On 07/02/2024 at 12:43, Stuka f said:

Very nice.

That would be my favourite too, if I had it...

Here is my pickel wall;

 

Wonderful K

One of my favorites 

Wasn’t he awarded Prussian Red Eagle Order, 2nd Class with Swords and crown? I’m not sure if the star was also awarded 

On 26/10/2020 at 10:55, saschaw said:

Finally, I could offer such a cross in my latest update as well, but unfortunately (just for you, not for me), it's already sold. Here's the pictures, for your further reference:

On 12/02/2010 at 05:36, MichaW said:

.... reverse

I think I know the new owner of this cross. It’s identical even with the distorted pin catch. 

It looks to be identical to the one Saschaw had.

Some lovely bars

I have another one on a tunic, its the first one posted.

Updating with photos. My Zimmermann is in a case on the wall but the front looks the same to this blind man. 

Hello, does anyone have the award rolls for the Wilhelm Cross with Swords and Crown?