NavalMark

The regulation for wear of prussian house orders say that the red eagle order and crown order are on the same level behind the order of the black eagle, but the red eagle order must be worn always before the crown order. The class has no influence on the position. So the combination on this bar is correct. Regards Markus

It took some time, but now i got the results of the research. Unusualy, not awarded to an officer but to a guards master seargent and anti-tank-gun commander on 29.3.1945. I will share this record with you and hope you enjoy it. Best regards Markus Order of the Red Banner #213.619 belonging to I.N. Zaitsev A. Award Card Order Booklet A-562783 1. Last name: Zaitsev 2. First name and patrionymic: Ivan Nikiforovich 3. Rank: Senior Sergeant 4. Gender: male 5. Birthyear: 1912 6. Birthplace: Ryazan Oblast, Kaverinskii Region 7. Party membership: yes, since 1943 8. Education: elementary 9. Nationality: Russian 10. Service in Red Army: 25.2.42-27.10.45 11. Place of service at time of awarding: 3 Anti-Tank Destroyer Brigade 12. Place of employment at present: Shchelkovo Police Department – Policeman 13. Home of record: Moscow Oblast, Shchelkovo Region, Factory #755 village, Cafeteria ITR [trans: unknown abbreviation] 14. Awards: Award Serial Number Awarding Organization Glory III 538.694 1 Belorussian Front dated 28.5.45 Red Banner 213.619 1 Belorussian Front Artillery dated 29.3.45 Red Star 221.277 3 Destroyer Brigade dated 13.7.43 Bravery Medal 1.353.125 28 [trans: sic “280”] Guards Destroyer Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment dated 14.7.44 Red Star 1.557.902(?) (?)03 Independent Guards Destroyer Anti- Tank Artillery Brigade dated 8.3.45 Information verified by a Shchelkovo Regional Military Commissariat official on 12 May 1947 B. Unit Award Listing First Belorussian Front unit award listing verifies Order of the Red Banner #213.619 was awarded to Guards Senior Sergeant Ivan Nikiforovich Zaitsev on 15.4.45 in Order Booklet #460236 on the basis of 1 Belorussian Front Artillery Commander Order #0177 dated 29.3.45. C. Award Recommendation 1. Full name: Zaitsev, Ivan Nikiforovich 2. Rank: Guards Senior Sergeant 3. Duty position and unit: Gun Commander – 280 Guards Destroyer Anti-Tank Regiment, 3 Independent Guards “Brest” Orders of Lenin and the Red Banner Destroyer Anti-Tank Artillery Brigade, RGK Application for the Order of the Red Banner 4. Birthyear: 1912 5. Nationality: Russian 6. Party membership: yes, since 1943 7. Participation in combat: since 10.1942 8. Wounds or shell-shock: none 9. In Red Army: since 1942 10. Inducted by: Shchelkovo Regional Military Commissariat, Moscow Oblast 11. Earlier awards: Red Star by Order of 3 Destroyer Brigade dated 13.7.43, Bravery Medal by 280GdsDestATArtyRegt, 3IndepGdsDestrArtyBrigade, RGK dated 14.7.44 12. Home of record: Moscow Oblast, Shchelkovo Station, large cafeteria ITR. Wife – Zaitseva, Anastasiya Pavlovna Short Objective Description of Personal Combat Feat Comrade I.N. Zaitsev has been a gun commander during the fighting from 9.2 through 20.2.45 and he and his crew have displayed exemplary steadfastness and courage in combat against the fascist invaders. In fighting on 16.2.45 during the defense of the Damnitz* when the enemy undertook a major attack of 30 tanks and as much as a battalion of infantry, Comrade Zaitsev and his crew were cut off from their higher and neighboring artillery batteries and yet with their cannon courageously repelled as many as twelve enemy tanks and enemy infantry, during which time they destroyed two heavy tanks, three heavy and four light machineguns, one anti-tank gun, and as many as sixty soldiers and officers, completely holding their occupied line. Comrade Zaitsev is deserving of the Order of the Red Banner. Signed Commander, 280 Guards Destroyer Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment, Guards Lieutenant Colonel Bakholdan on 17 February 1945 Endorsed Commander, 3 Independent Guards “Brest” Orders of Lenin and the Red Banner Destroyer Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment, RGK, Guards Colonel Kolokolop on 17 February 1945 Endorsed Artillery Commander, 2 Guards Tank Army, Guards General-Major of Artillery Plaskov on 28 March 1945 Awarded the Order of the Red Banner by Artillery Commander, 1 Belorussian Front #0180 dated 7.4.1945. Verified by Senior Deputy Chief of 1 Belorussian Front Artillery Personnel Section, Lieutenant Colonel of Admnistrative Services Vas(?) *[trans: geographic place names may not be as appeared due to transliteration from German to Russian and English]

Thanks for the information ! Here is before and after soft cleaning with warm water. I like patina and also silver oxidation, but i think it is legible to remove dust and dyrt. Regards Markus

Thanks for this information, research has been started by Alexei Merezhko. The condition is much better than on the pics i showed, the lower areas of the leafs and the white enamle was covered by dust and dirt. I have cleaned the surface with handwarm water and a smooth brush, of cause without polishing or silvercleaning. I will show better pics later. By the way - there are some different systems to classify russian orders, what is the most common ? I checked mondvor.com and after that it is Typ 3, variant 4, sub-variant 1. There is still the system of McDonald/Schmitt and some more ..... ? Thanks and best regards Markus

I think you will get the same opinions like in Sammler-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Auszeichnungen. Regards CSForrester / NavalMark

Hello Alex, thanks for your advice, i saw the link you posted and as soon as the order arrives i will subscribe for a research. For me - an "old" collector of royal prussian decorations, this potential of research of single decorations is nearly unbelievable. I bought a lot of soviet awards around 1992-1995 and sold them some years later, but this archival material gives me a new thrill to pick some up. If this Order of the red banner gets a name i will post it. Thanks and best regards Markus

Thanks Bill, i will take it. I think the trading value of about 120,- Euro is not too much. I have read the threads about researching, but how can i contact a researcher ? Best regards Markus

..and the obverse ....

Hello Gentlemen, i want to get this ORB by trading against my Iron Cross 1914 1st class mm S-W. Is the ORB original and was awarded (what i mean to see from the numbers/dates published above by Mr. Research) during World War II ? Thanks for your friendly help. Best wishes Markus

Also the first issue of the iron cross 1813 included the two different ribbons, black with white stripes for combattants, white with black stripes for non-combattants. These two sorts of ribbon became after 1813 the classic prussian "war-ribbon" for all house-orders, awarded for military merit. 1870/71 4.084 2nd classes where awarded with the white/black ribbon, 13 of them received also the first class for non-combattant merit. For 1813/1815 342 2nd classes with the white/black ribbon were awarded. Regards NavalMark

reverse ......

Oldenburg, Hausorden Großkomturstern. Fake of this period ..........

About two dozends of silver plates and rings with the date "Königgrätz 3.Juli 1866" were given to wounded flags after the war. 4 or 5 were fixed to the shoe of the flagtop. Because this top was heavily deformed i prefer: II. Bataillon 3.Magdeburgisches Infanterie-Regiment The royal order from may 1867 remarks: "3.Magdeburgisches Infanterie-Regiment 2. Bataillon. 1.Silberner Ring um den Schuh der Fahnenspitze mit der Inschrift Königgrätz 3.Juli 1866 2. Spitze gerade richten. .............." But also I./2. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß II./Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier-Regiment are possible, but no damage of the top is mentioned. Regards Navalmark

Very impressive historic item. The silver plate was fixed to hold torn off streamers. Maker of these silver plates was Hofjuwelier Carl Schwerin (yes, the same company which made Kriegsmarine-war-badges in WW2). Have you identified the unit to which this top belonged ? Cant read the location and date before 1866....... Regards NavalMark

Hello, the war-aid cross counts as a decoration awarded for war-service. So it was worn before any civil decoration like the RAO. Best wishes and merry christmas Markus

@Matt: I have tried several times to send the scans of Noeskes documets to your email, it does not work ! Please give me a correct adress via PN. Here Noeskes award document for the long-service-award I. - IV. class ..... Best wishes Markus

Werkführer and Werkmeister belonged to the subaltern personal of the imperial naval yards. They were at least craftsmen in a Werkstatt with higher level than a normal worker. They could be compared with Feldwebel/Vizefeldwebel ranks and they wore a plain blue jacket with silver navy-buttons. There designation was only on the visorcap, an imperial crown over the Kokarde for Werkführer and imperial crown with a clear anchor below for Werkmeister. Of cause there is no EK II document, i wrote the post above without having a look on his ribbon bar. Regards NavalMark

I bought the complete group of documents from Helmut Weitze about 12 - 15 years ago. I have send PM to Matt that i still have paper-copies of: -Centenarmedaille -Prussian Landwehrdienstauszeichnung 2nd class -Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe -Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer -Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnung IV. - I. Klasse -Olympia-Ehrenzeichen -Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse Also his patents to -Marinehilfswerkführer 1908 -Marinewerkführer 1917 -Marinewerkmeister 1925 -Werkstättenvorsteher 1927 His last designation on the document for KVK II.mSchw. in 1943 is Marinebetriebsingenieur. I sold the group 5 or 6 years ago an will send copies of the docs to Matt. So it was a real physical grouping of someone who would never appear in a Ranglist or could be identified by award rolls. Omly missing is and was the document for Iron Cross 2nd class 1914. Noeske was a typical naval official of the imperial navy, was in the civil "parking zone" until 1935 and received in 1936 all four classes of the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnung. Regards NavalMark

May be Sachsen Meiningen. His cousin (i think cousin, i am confused by all the names and dates i checked tonight)Heinrich Hockenbeck was married with the daughter of Albert Ritter von Vahlkampf, Anna Katharina Vahlkampf. Albert Ritter von Vahlkampf was state-minister in Meiningen until he died in 1858. The "Ritter von" came with the award of the Verdienstorden der Bayerischen Krone, i guess. He is mentioned in the court-register of bavarian nobility in 1851 with the addition "Ri1 V7". Regards Markus

..and i am a little bit exhited, searching in my archivals...... Until now only found this, not important but interesting: the church-register extract from Alverskirchen about the wedding of his parents. His mother, Anna Gertrud Diepenbrock, was also the mother of his sister, the wife of my great-grandfather. And the twin of the photo ..... Markus

Of cause, so he is a related to my great-grandfather Rittmeister d.R. Dr. Heinrich Hockenbeck, also born in Alverkirchen in 1846. Thanks Rick for the name ! May be i have his documents of birth and some more informations about him. I will have a look this evening. Regards Markus

What a small world ! The man was a comrade or friend of my great-gandfather. I have exact photo Nr.2 in his album. I will check the reverse of my photo this evening, perhaps a notice ..... In the 1880/90 years my great/grandfather was Rittmeister d.R. and Kommandeur of Landwehr-Train in Landwehrbezirk Meschede. I showed the picture here.... http://sammlergemeinschaft-deutscherauszeichnungen.org/wbb4/thread.php?threadid=5943&hilight=Mertens Regards Markus

Gentlemen, i can follow your arguments and i think this bar has a good chance to be Models bar. At least it is for me a question of believe or not believe that this bar is 1.) 100% unique 2.) Model never updated his bar after 1936/1937. A lot of officers were stored in a "parking zone" during the 100.000-men-army period as military officials or advisors and they came back in active service in 1935. So they were never mentioned with their decorations in a Weimar-period Rangliste. The service as an military official counted for the long service awards. Also any officer who entered service before 1906/05 with 5 years service in WWI could get the 25-long service decoration until 1939 if he was reactivated for the Wehrmacht in 1935. Most pictures of Model we know were taken from PK-photographers showing him as an commanding general, of cause without the medalbar. Otherwise between 1937 and 1945, 8 years, there were shurely a lot of official occasians for a general/generaloberst/generalfeldmarschall to wear his fullsize medalbar. So at least for me it is and it will stay a question of believe or not. But still a nice medalbar with a good chance to be Models bar. Regards Markus

Yes, incredible. this method of identifying medalbars and to give them a name is incredible. Your conclusion that this bar once belonged to Model must include the proof that: -no other officer of army, airforce or navy could have had a bar with the same combination (please dont insist that no naval officer had a red backing on the bar) -this bar is a non altered version from Model between 1936 and 1939 without any 3rd Reich-award, no occupation-medals, no clasp 1939 on the EK. May be its from Model, may be from an other officer. But a nice bar at all. Regards Markus

I just want to repeat my post, already posted in the parallel thread in the WAF. There are a lot of facts, published in "Orden & Ehrenzeichen" Nr.5, 7 and 17, the magazin of the german order collectors society BDOS. The Generalordenskommission send a telegram to the recepient and to the unit of the recepient, the Spange was send by post from the Generalordenskommission. Thats a fact, there are several Uebersendungsschreiben published. The unit had to write and seal a Besitzzeugnis, until now only one is known from the Train-Abteilung 10. The clasp itself was made by Wagner, Kaiser Wilhelm chosed the awarded design from three different samples Wagner produced for choice. The GOK got the order to buy the clasps from Wagner and to distribute them, but no general documents from GOK or even Verleihungsurkunden are known beside the one mentioned above. Regards NavalMark