NavalMark

Here the corret data of Leo Jacobsen from my List "Seeoffiziere". The complete list contains all ranks and branches of the imperial german navy, so it is not so detailed

Best regards
Markus

Yes, in the upcoming Thies-auction are also some battlehonors on a 1870/71 ribbon ........ but it is a wild collection of single clasps without any sense.
It can not be designated to any unit.
This "ribbon" was also published already in the Hüsken-Katalog and the single clasps in Nimmergut Vol. II. I think it is one of the remainig items from the Blass-collection.

Regards Markus

Sorry Rudi,

no ribbons from Hessen in my collection, i also cant remember that i have seen one on a Picture. But - where are the flags and Standards of your regiments today ? May be the ribbons are still beside the colours. So it should be.

Hallo Rudi,

ein Band eines hessischen Bataillons oder Regiments habe ich bisher bewusst nicht wahrgenommen. Grundsätzlich könnten und sollten sie sich noch an/bei den Fahnen befinden. Kennst Du Aufbewahrungsorte ?
Falls Dich die Kombination von Gefechtsspangen einer bestimmten Fahne interessieren, kann ich gern nachschauen.
Gruß Markus

Over 600 ribbons with approx. 580 different battlehonors were awarded in 1895 to the flags of Bataillons (Infantry, Jäger, Pioniere) or regimental-Standards (cavalry) or regimental flags (artilleriy).

Here is an other one. 2nd Bataillion 1. Badisches Leib-Grenadier-Regiment (Inf,Rgt. Nr. 109).

Typical Baden-combination, starting with the siege of Strassburg.

Regards Markus

Also an Award for 1870/71:
Erinnerungsfahnenband 1895, this awarded to the flag of Landwehr-Bataillon Ruppin.
Battlehonors where always in chronological order, starting at the lower end of the ribbon,

Regards Markus

The clasp KARAS-BERGE is a modern fake !

Please have a look on the other offers of this seller, he also offers a clasp with fake colonial clasps. Also i think, the Suedwestafrika-Denkmünze and the Kolonialdenkmuenze(in an other auction) are modern copies. All offered medalbars are new combinations, sewn together in the same style.

Please save your Money and Keep away !

Regards

Markus

The Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen was never awarded with the black-white prussian "war-ribbon". Always with the white-red/orange ribbon of the red-eagle-order, but 35mm wide instead of 30mm for the RAO 4th class.

Two very rare exceptions were made:
- after the war against Denmark 1864 a few subaltern military officials, who served behind the front without any enemy contact, got the AEZ with a narrow black stripe between the two red/orange stripes

- over the decades a few persons got the AEZ with the ribbon of the livesaving medal, in case of a second livesaving and if they received the livesaving medal before.

Regards

Markus

Hello Andreij,

Andreas posted your question on the german SDA-forum and answered on some questions.

Here the original statutes of institution from January 16, 1842.

There you will find answers to most of your questions. Unfortunately i dont have the original statutes for the LWDA 1 at the moment, but i know that there the designation "2nd class" for the Schnalle is introduced to make a difference to the cross 1st. class.

If there are problems to read and translate it, i will try to translate the most important parts later.

Best regards

Markus

Sascha, the numbers of strucked and awarded crosses are correct, i did not research them from Tilo´s famous article, just took them from my very, very old brain ......

But about two different versions, completly gilt and partly gilt - i am shure.
The statutes from october, 1st. 1898 say " Das Zeichen erster Klasse besteht in einem in rother Emaille mit schmaler Silbereinfassung ausgeführten "Rothen Kreuze", dessen Balken mit goldenen Kronen besetzt sind." (Hoeftmann, "Der Preussische Ordensherold", 2.Nachtrag 1890, S.5).

If you compare the pieces shown in the article from Tilo, you will recognize the different coulour of the narrow edging of the red enamel.

Best wishes
Markus

It is far, far away from an original, awarded piece.

All original awarded pieces were made (die struck) by the Berlin mint, the tools they used are still today in the coin-cabinet in Berlin. The archivals of the Berlin mint tell us a number about 220 pieces strucked.
They all are from silver, crosses on the crown are rounded, the arms of the crosses never cut out. The design under the red coloured glass-flow is cut by hand, not die strucked. The crowns were gilded, but most pieces have lost most of this.

I know also a variant which was completely gilded and then the edges of the red cross were polished back to silver. I think these are earlier produced and awarded pieces.

Here is the one from my collection.

I guess, the variant shown above is a version sold by Steinhauer & Lück after World War II.

Regards Markus

Hello Ulsterman,

yes, you find the link for download in category "Deutsche Orden bis 1918", pinned on top of the first page under "Verleihungslisten".

But this morning - i cant enter the forum, may be some problems with the server. If you give me an email-adress, i can send the lists to you.

Best regards

Markus Bodeux

Hello Ulsterman,

the lists can be downloaded here:

http://h1797427.stratoserver.net/public_html/wbb3/board3-3/board5-deutsche-orden-ehrenzeichen-auszeichnungen-bis-1918/7644-verleihungslisten/

Best regards

Markus

Here is my only awarded example of an RAO with swords, a 4th class, the model from 1885 until 1916. All parts original, the swords hollow from two parts, screwed into the center medaillon. It is a very ugly example because of the very bad made reparatures. But it comes directly from the ripped medalbar of Kapitän z.S. Moritz Krause, so i like it instead of its ugly

Beside this i only have a 1930-1950 wearer´s copy, probably made by Godet and sold by Sedlatzek. One piece, Silver, swords were gilded.

Regards

Markus

I want to add this inofficial version of the prussian Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung 2nd class. Private purchase for wear on civil cloth in the buttonhole, made from porcelain and painted. No maker marks.

Regards

Markus

Why a mistake ? Members of the "Stabswache" received the medal with the ribbon of the Houseorder of Hohenzollern. Can you find a silver content mark on the medal ?

Regards

Markus

I have digitalized all awards published in the Marineverordnungsblatt 1871-1918, and the relation between the medal of the crown-order to the medal of the RAO is 4:1. Not all awards were published, but the relation is clear.

Regards

Markus

The medals of the Red Eagle-Order and Crown-Order did not belong the royal prussian system of decorations. They were paied from the personal account of the emperor and given without and award-document.
Sometimes, the recipient got a copy of the "Übersendungsschreiben", the letter accompaning the medal in its small case from Berlin to the unit of the recipient.

So in the case below, an award in 1907 to a Feldwebel of the Imperial German Navy.

Regards

Markus

No iron cross, but also a non-combattants bar with KDM1864 and 1870/71 for non-combattants in steel.

Regards

Markus

Ok Mike,

last post of mine in this topic, i wont discuss it, others may.

I count the value of the single decorations + bar without the KO4X and i see about 120,- Euro. The KO4 is an original, i think awarded, piece before 1914, but holes has been drilled into the center and casted swords have been added. Value of such a KO4 in good condition is about 200,- Euro (original with swords about 550 at the moment), but with the holes ? I dont know. I would not buy it, anyway, but if someone wants it - 250 -300 Euro i would accept as fair for the bar.

Regards

Markus

You´re welcome, but i think now its time for a moderator to "moderate" a little bit.

Sweety - Sascha, i think thats your nickname from now on ! Take is as a compliment from a not-believer who believes in his cross !

Regards

Markus

What is a Spangenstueck?

Direct translated "medalbar-piece", a replacement piece bought by the recepient from a jeweler to be placed on the medal bar and always different in some details. To keep the awarded piece at home and to protect it from damage.

Regards

Markus

Yes, i know how insulting it is in your eyes, but every serious collector has to show up upgraded/faked items. It would be irresponsible to let someone "believe" this cross would be original in all parts.

Funny coincidence, the prussian crown order 4th and 3rd class is at the moment the center piece of interest for comming publications at the german phaleristic society, and if have seen enough ......

If you come to Germany, we can meet in my cabinet and have a look through the microscope ....

Or we can visit a church and believe.

Regards

Markus

The last crown order 4th class with swords before WWI(including awards of swords to ...) was in 1911 for action in Ponape.

Spiegel von und zu Peckelsheim, Edgar Frhr. 1903, 04.01. Pr. Kronen-O. 4. Kl. m. Schwertern Oberleutnant zur See 1911, 04.26. CORMORAN, Wachoffizier bis 23.12.10

Warning to all members: dont believe the story, that the KO4X shown above is an original, cross and swords were married some decades later.

Collecting is not the same as religion, not a question of believing or not.

Regards

Markus

The award to Müller was one of a few exceptions, thats correct. He already owned the KO3 and was too young in career to get the RAO3X, so he received "the swords to - die Schwerter zum" KO3. But i am shure his swords were very different ....

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Centenarmedaille Unterleutnant zur See 1897, 03.22.S BLUECHER

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. RAO 4. Kl. Kapitänleutnant 1906, 09.19. Schlachtflotte, Admiralstabsoffizier

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Russ. St.Annen-O. 3. Kl. Kapitänleutnant 1907, 09.17. KAISER WILHELM DER GROSSE, Artillerieoffizier

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. RAO 4. Kl., Krone z. Korvettenkapitän 1909, 06.08. Hochseeflotte, Admiralstabsoffizier

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Sa.Kgr. Albrechts-O. Ritterkreuz 1. Kl. m. Krone Korvettenkapitän 1912, 06.13. Reichsmarineamt

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Kronen-O. 3. Kl. Korvettenkapitän 1913, 03.01. Reichsmarineamt

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Kronen-O. 3. Kl., Schwerter z. Korvettenkapitän 1913, 10.13. EMDEN, Kommandant

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz XXV Jahre Korvettenkapitän 1913, 11.15.R EMDEN, Kommandant

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Chile, Verdienstorden 2. Kl. Fregattenkapitän 1914, 07.14. EMDEN, Kommandant

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Eisernes Kreuz 1914 I. Kl. Fregattenkapitän 1918, 02.14.R EMDEN, Kommandant, in Holland interniert

Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Pour le Mérite Fregattenkapitän 1918, 03.19. EMDEN, Kommandant, in Holland interniert

Regards

Markus

I have seen in some decades of collecting prussian orders & decorations only 4th classes with swords marked by Godet and Wagner. Wagner shall been the only official supplier of the GOK of RAO4 and KO4 with swords, Godet shall have only sold replacement pieces.

The swords shown here are very close to those made by Godet, but they have not the quality. All original swords i have seen are die struck with very clear and sharp edges. These here look casted, often seen on upgraded crosses.

Send the pictures to one of the honorable dealers and offer it for sale. You will be disapointed ............

And by the way - for what was this cross awarded ? No china, no southwest-africa, no colonial comemorative medal ? Interested, how you will explain this ....

Regards

Markus