speedytop

Hi Stephan, Rositten. Cornet v. Hahn But I think, that it is Rositten in East Prussia Uwe

Medal "For meritorious service" in the DSMF (Deutscher Sportverband Moderner Fünfkampf), Biathlon

Hi, just for fun! I have a set of b/w copies of decorations and documents of one man. Leutnant a.D.d.R., party member, and a friend of Prinz AuWi. There are three medalbars (it could be, that you can combine two of them), with 23-25 decorations, some single decorations (not all with documents), and a mini chain with (only) 14 minis. Here is the list of his documents for several decorations: EK 2 Sa-Altenburg: Tapferkeitsmedaille EK 1 Oberland: Gedenkmünze für Oberschlesien Oberland: Tiroler Adler Schlesischer Adler I. und II. Klasse (one document) Kyffhäuser-Bund: Kriegsdenkmünze 1914/18 Bayern: Goldene Hochzeits-Erinnerungsmünze Deutsche Ehrendenkmünze des Weltkrieges mit Kampfabzeichen Ehren- und Erinnerungskreuz des Marinekorps Flandern (2x) Infanterie-Rgiment 380: Regiments-Erinnerungszeichen in Bronze Sächsisches Kriegs-Ehrenkreuz 1914/18 I. Klasse am weißgrünen Band Deutscher Volksorden: Deutsch-Bekenntniskreuz I. Klasse Kreuz der sächsischen Ehrenlegion Frontkriegerbund: Frontkreuz Deutscher Trainbund: Trainkreuz Bund der Verdun- und Argonnenkämpfer: Ehrenzeichen für Verdun- und Argonnen-Kämpfer (3 documents) Österreichische Ehrenlegion: K.E.K. mit Schwertern Deutscher Volksorden: Komturkreuz (nowhere listed) Ehrenbund Sächsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Goldenes Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern Sachsenbund deutscher Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Sächsisches Kriegsehrenkreuz 1914/18 Ritterkreuz I. Klasse Bund der Somme- und Champagne-Kämpfer: Somme- und Champagne-Kreuz (2 documents) Prinz Alfons-Erinnerungszeichen auf blauem Bande and later Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 Uwe

Hi VC89, "... order of LII with crossed swords under or above the crown. Are you sure those are real?" Yes, they are real, but they are not officially . Please see here, Post 24 and following: http://gmic.co.uk/in...ds/page__st__20 Uwe

Troy, I don't see the pages with the pictures 106 - 109. 105 is the lowest grade, I think the 19th? There are many other grades, like "Ehren-Landesfechtmeister" and "Ehren-Oberbundesfechtmeister", or the highest, "Altmeister der Fechtkunst". https://picasaweb.go...863065780514642 Uwe

Hi Troy, this is the second grade > Fechtmeister. The first grade is > Fechter, and I have corrected that in the other thread from Fechtmeister to Fechter. Uwe

A nice black and white and gold pennant. Black side: Company of the excellent quality. White side: Exemplary sports community.

Streptile, thank you: "... the precise definitions do have real meaning and importance, so hopefully this will change in the future." Uwe

Honoring document to the ASV (Armeesportvereinigung Vorwärts), sports organization "Landstreitkräfte". Original signature Generaloberst Keßler

Dear Graf, I think, that you don't know, how often I had such discussions in 3 German and in 3 English-speaking forums. With the same problems in German and in English (often with the same people ). My comments are based on knowledge and experience in more than 50 years of collecting and research. The use of special terms are based on mutually agreed terms, formulated by international well known and recognized societies for orders, medals and decorations. Societies like OMSA (Orders and Medals Society of America), DGO (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde) and ÖGO (Österreichische Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde). It is not my invention or only my personal opinion! OMSA: "Original" - means medals authorized by, or produced under contract to, the issuing entity during the period for which the award was authorized or awarded to the recipients of the medal. DGO/ÖGO: "All awarded pieces are originals. Other specimens are also originals, which had been made in the award period by authorized makers ..." There are some nuances, but the agreed base for originals is always the award period (Verleihungszeitraum) resp. during the period for which the award was authorized or awarded. Uwe

hagahr, are you able to to give factual comments? What is your problem with me? Uwe

Gordon, "The fact that Uwe was issued a tunic made by a tailor and that it was paid for from his KKBw account only speaks to the issuing of one tunic." There had been several tailors like Franz Kuhnert, Traugott Rahne, Brodersen and others, in Hannover, Munich and in other locations. Please see Kunstwadl page 48/49. There was no issue. I ordered it in Hannover and I paid for it in Hannover, direct at the shop of Franz Kuhnert. The KKBw had nothing to do with that! And it was my free choice, to present the invoice to the KKBw. I must not do that. It could be complete without the KKBw! Look at all the different colours of Army uniforms, especially for the "Aufklärer". You could not buy such a light grey jacket at the KKBw. Later it changed, and several Aufklärer bought very dark grey jackets, but not from the KKBw. Uwe

Hi, saschaw: "I did not claim wearer copies not to be worth collecting. Never! I'm honestly not 100% sure if speedytop did" See my comment in Post 8: "Yes, they [the veterans] can buy a copy. Why not!" Really, why not? I have some copies (not originals) in my collection. For example a German Luftwaffen "Generalsdegen", numbered, in very good quality. When I bought it, I bought it as "Kopie" (copy, not original). It could be, that the etched blade is original, but I bought it as copy. It was the quality, why I bought it. And I bought it, because the price was acceptable, ... for a copy. Why not? Uwe

Steve. once more, Steve, can you please show better pictures ot the 3 different collar tabs,in the same light conditions? In your Waffenfarben sheet the colours for ABC-Abwehrtruppe and Heeresflugabwehrtruppe are definitely not correct. Gordon, "They were in fact almost all supplied by KKBw." This is not correct, see in Post 1 "Franz Kuhnert Hannover". I bought my first jacket direct at Kuhnert in Hannover. Only the invoice was paid from my KKBw account. Therefore it could be correct, that "all of these tunics were made by different tailors". Uwe

Hi, in my opinion it is not Panzertruppe and not Generalstab. The collar tab of a "Generalstabsoffizier" is in another colour in in another design. I think, that we see here an Artillerie tunic. It is the same here: http://gmic.co.uk/in...mit-fangschnur/ This is definitely a Panzer tunic: http://gmic.co.uk/in...-uniform-named/ For comparison: Steve, can you please show better pictures ot the different collar tabs,in the same light conditions? Based on your pictures I see here Artillerie Panzer and Artillerie: Uwe

Graf, I'm not defending the word "Original" in the St&L catalogue. Please look at the picture in post 28. Above you see first the word "Original", next the word "Miniatur", then "Auflagen". The three words stand here for the size, and not for the originality of the decorations. Listed on this page are 1957 versions and not originals (copies). You could buy the 1957 version "Panzerkampfabzeichen" in the original size, as miniature 16mm and as minature 9mm for the ribbon bar. And you could buy a copy of a "Panzervernichtungsabzeichen" in the original size, the same decoration as miniature 16mm and as minature 9mm for the ribbon bar The word "Original" stand here not for the originality, only for the size. Your 1914 EK 1 is in the original size, but it is not an original. My interest is the historical truth. And I express this clearly. And my problem is, that several collectors don't like it. But that does not change the truth. "All [KC] are considered as Original. or claimed as such" It is not like the Kleidekassen-Katalog with originals and copies. Here it is a mixture of originals and not originals, copies and fakes. I think, that we don't need a new thread for the Question what is FAKE and what is ORIGINAL. There is need for a thread about originals and not originals, not originals splitted into copies and fakes. But it is quite pointless, if individuals do not even accept a common basis. And the lowest common basis can, in my understanding, only be the award period. Uwe

Sorry! I must show the LDO text more completed: "Ebenso wie die Herstellung des Eisernen Kreuzes 1.Klasse 1939 mit Schraubvorrichtung jetzt gestattet ist, ist nunmehr auch die Herstellung der Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz des Weltkriegs mit Schraubscheibe zugelassen. Ferner können Kreuz und Spange in fester Verbindung mit gemeinsamer Schraubvorrichtung in den Handel gebracht werden. Es sind nur bestimmte Muster zugelassen.Diese können von den Firmen, die eine Genehmigung des Präsidialkanzlei des Führers zur Herstellung von Nachbildungen staatlicher Orden und Ehrenzeichen für den privaten Handel besitzen,von der Firma C.E.Juncker, Berlin SW 68, Alte Jakobsstr.13 bezogen werden.Alle anderen Anfertigungen bleiben verboten. Vor der mengenmäßigen Herstellung sind der Präsidialkanzlei des Führers und Reichskanzlers Muster vorzulegen." Juncker is here only meant for the specimen (Muster) of the above described decorations. Important is here for me, independent of the described decorations, the usage of the term "Nachbildungen staatlicher Orden und Ehrenzeichen für den privaten Handel". And I remeber a contemporary catalogue of a maker, where he definitely wrote, that he offered not originals. But I don't remember, which maker it was, and what term he used. In several contemporary catalogues you can find the word Original, e.g. St&L in 1939. But it is not meant as an original piece. It is only the word Original for the differentiation between the original size and the size for a miniature (Miniatur). You can find the same description in the post war Bundeswehr catalogues of the Kleiderkasse der Bundeswehr (KKB/KKBw). Uwe

Who say, that the Kleiderkasse sold not authorized pieces, as "Nachbildung" > copy? Where is written, that this is also meant for a 1914 EK? Do you really think and believe, that a 1914 EK need a "Mustergenehmigung", more than seventeen years after the award period? §18 is for the licensing (Zulassung), the Kleiderkasse had the licensing. The remark "Gesetz ... vom 19. Mai 1933" is against the sense of the dignity of the symbols. That is not a problem for the Kleiderkasse. No Gestape for (against) copies. "and Maybauer was selling Juncker crosses in 1941 privately?" Excuse me, what is meant here? Where is here a connection to a 1914 EK? Uwe

No fakes! A mixture of originals and not originals (copies). Uwe

Hi haghar, "regulating the copys off original medals" I'm asking especially for regulations of the production of 1914 EK in WW II. But, as you write it: regulating the copies !!!! LDO regulations 1941: "Diese können von den Firmen, die eine Genehmigung des Präsidialkanzlei des Führers zur Herstellung von Nachbildungen staatlicher Orden und Ehrenzeichen für den privaten Handel besitzen,von der Firma C.E.Junker,Berlin SW 68, Alte Jakobsstr.13 bezogen werden." Nachbildung: imitation, replica, duplicate, copy, reproduction, replication "... as I do not experiance the tone off this conversation as a tone off gentlemans" Not to be of your opinion, is equivalent to "not be a tone of gentlemen"? Uwe

"making it a approved state medal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, officially ....." Is there an official document, that they had to produce these pieces as original? I only know, that they had to mark their pieces, originals and copies. Uwe

What is wrong with a good copy? Everybody can see, that it is not an original, and everybody can see, that it is not a fake/forgery (there are visible differences). And it is really a good copy. But please, don't call a copy as an original. uwe

Yes, a very nice copy (not original), and in great condition! Uwe

marrauder, what is your problem? "... mainly when you still didn´t help him with the question even a bit." Where is your help? That is the question: Original versus Repro > "Please, for your opinion ..." My opinion you can read in post 6 and 8. > Repro! With justification. And last, Where I'm disgusting? hagahr, "what ever is comming out off theyre production in those years is original maker produced medals" No problem, the crosses produced after 1924 are original AWS or Juncker, but not original 1914 EK's. "what you talking about is the first awarded medal" Is there a second award of a 1914 EK after 1924? There is only one award, from 1914 to 1924. Uwe

Hi Graf, "... that are considered as "Original"" Considered by whom? By the sellers and dealers, looking for a higher price? "genuine reproduction" Gosh! What a nice expression! A "genuine reproduction" could be made in the award period, by authorized makers. It is a not awarded piece, but "considered as Original". "In this particular case "Original" means made by the Maker whose mark is on the EK, not a forgery or fake made in Estonia, China or Pakistan." And when there is a maker mark from an Estonian, a Chinese or a Pakistani manufacturer, it is an original? And when a German maker produced it yesterday, with his mark on it, it is an original? "... for the WW1 Veterans serving in the Wehrmacht and all other recipients or for display purposes by their families request if the first ones had perished." Yes, they can buy a copy. Why not! But that makes not an original. A not original piece can be a copy, a fake or a forgery. Only a piece, made in the award period by authorized makers, can be an original. Uwe