speedytop

Hi, and now back to the roots! I have played a little bit with the second picture from Post 1, rotating and stretching. And I have copied it on the different here shown PlM. The best, nearly perfect match I find with the two PlM in Post 25 from Steve. I can show you the complete picture, but I can not show you the special effect in my program "Microsoft Photo Editor", an old program from 1998. When I copy the grey part into the picture of the PLM, there is a special effect possible, before I complete the copy. I can scroll (with correspondig imagination) the picture with the not yet included part. At that time it is possible, to slide the included part in any direction, but it is placed on the correct position. When I move the scroll bar horizontal (or vertical), in different speeds, I can see alternating the included part and the part below the included part, it is like a movie, an animated cartoon . The dark elements on the grey picture are concordant with parts of the crown on the coloured picture, all the other parts of the eagles are corresponding too. Regards Uwe

Hi, yes, we are partial off topic, but not complete, because the base was (and for several collectors is), that a PlM made after 1918 could never be an original. Move it or not, I accept it. Hi Les, We aren't really disagreeing. The first IC 2nd class (1914 version) came into my collection in 1958. Is that old enough for you? Hi Harrier, why it is so important for you, that we have to differentiate between the period 1945 to 1949 and the later period up to 1957? Why it is not enough, to look on the period from 1945 to 1957, before the "Ordensgesetz"? One of the problems, to locate a specific period, you can find in Post 81: "Questions to S&L about medals often gets a response that they don't know anything." That is also my experience. It is to late for us, to gather precise informations about the whole period or confined time periods. I think, that I have proofs for the period before 1952, only small parts, minis. But my investigations are not concluded yet. It is integrated in the investigations for the time period of the sports badges DRL without swastika. Progress could be achieved, also with the help of another collector, but this does not suffice me yet as a real proof. "There was speculation that these dealers were selling newly-made copies at this time, BUT NO PROOF." What do you need as a proof? The list from Friedrich Sedlatzek in 1956 (Preisliste Nr. 7; I think list No. 7 after 1945, list No. 11 is only a few years later) with 6 pages and several hundred positions is for me proof enough. Do you really believe, that he would sell a before 1945 produced "Deutscher Adler-Orden, Gro?kreuz in Gold (vergoldet) achtspitziger Stern" for 100,- DM, and a West German "Gro?kreuz mit Schulterband und Stern" he sell for 300,-DM? Did he have the authorization before 1945 to produce such pieces like Ritterkreuz (echt Silber), Eichenlaub mit Schwertern (echt Silber), Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe in Silber or Alpaka, the complete list of DR/TR and several imperial and foreigen decorations? "Originale wie verliehen!" That does not mean "Originale"! Or made from original parts! It is a handwritten addition in January 1957, knowing, that some months later he could no longer offer all these parts with swastika! Everybody can form his own opinion on that. As a marginal note: "RK's (in swastika form) prior to the 1957 re-issue of that award." There was no re-issue in 1957, only the allowance to produce, to sell, to buy (and collect) and to wear those 1957 versions. Regards Uwe

Hi Les, you really believe in it, until 1957? "In Germany,medals could not be manufactured again, until 1957, when the law was changed." That is not correct, and we all know it. Please see your own comment: "S&L we know made DR/TR medals after 1945, even with the Hakenreuz." With the "Ordensgesetz" of 1957 it was stricly forbidden, to manufacture and to offer and sell decorations with "nationalsozialistischen Emblemen". Therefore, "...logic. Logic in particular ...", S&L made DR/TR medals between 1945 and 1957. The Allied law say, as you write it: "military insignia and decorations" (Law No. 43, dated 20 December 1946, Prohibition of the Manufacture, ... and Storage of War Materials, Schedule A, Group III, g)". Military, but not civil insignia and decorations. And not only S&L made civil and military decorations in Germany, chronologically far before 1957. It is also not correct, that -ANYONE- could since 1957 buy all decorations. It is not correct, till this day, for "Orden und Ehrenzeichen" of the Federal Republic of Germany. And it is strictly forbidden by law to wear medals without authorization. Hi Harrier, "1945-1955- NO new manufacture of anything. Perhaps finishing (assembly, adding pins, etc.) to existing leftover stock (of which there was, apparently, an abundance), for sale to "the entitled" or to occupation forces." Please see my comment above. "Based on some German dealer catalogs from this time, it is likely that some companies, especially S&L, may have commenced illicit new actual production of badges with swastikas at approximately this same time." No, not "this same time", the production started before 1957, long before 1955. What do you think, what e.g. Fahnen-Fleck, Erich Beinhorn, Die Ordenssammlung and Friedrich Sedlatzek offered in the "Der Deutsche Soldatenkalender 1953", produced in 1952? Chewing gum with small plastic medals? No, "Originale wie verliehen", "originals pieces as awarded", and really not only from leftover stocks . (see Dietrich Maerz, Knights Cross ot the Iron Cross, page 374 to 389) Why do so many Non-Germans think, that they know more about the life in Germany after 1945 and that they know the German laws and regulations better than the Germans themselves? The Morgenthau Plan was not implemented! The regulations of the Control Council for Germany are the theory, the real life in Germany was the practise. In sozialism there is a motto: Theorie und Praxis = Marx und Murks. Rough translation: theory and practise = Marx and botch Regards Uwe

Sorry Don, I apologise, I could not detect that without a hint to the comment or the user, because my comment was located chronologically behind the comment from Daniel . Kind Regards Uwe

Hi, my English must be catastrophic, that a user could misread my comment in that way. dond: "If you hold that only awarded pieces are "real" then there are alot of fake EK1s, IABs, PABs, etc... out there. " That is my text: "Originals are awarded decorations and/or authorized produced pieces in the award period." I write not only about awarded pieces! But the more important part is "... in the award period." And I don't speak in that comment about fakes. Daniel Cole: "... award pieces, and everything else ..." That should be, and I think better, "... original pieces, and everything else." "everything else" is for me a copy or a fake. And there could not be a special section for special copies, e.g. for the PlM. Once more, there are very fine copies (may be better than the original), and there are of course very fine fakes. A fake must be very good, like the original, if not, everybody could see, that it is not an original, and than it is not a fake, it is "only" a copy . Yes dond, "... there are alot of fake [copy] EK1s, IABs, PABs, etc... out there". The originality sometimes only exist in the head of the owner. We all know, that there are "grey zones". See the discussions about the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, see the discussions about the originality of pieces from Souval or Steinhauer & L?ck etc. But why we must construct a grey zone for pieces from those everybody knows that they are not original? Many collectors are glad about the fact that they have in their collection a high-quality copy, under circumstances even from an original manufacturer of the originals. For me such pieces are also worth collecting I really can understand this, I have in my collection a generals sword of the Luftwaffe of the Third Reich from which one says that it could be produced with some genuine parts (blade) by the original manufacturer. However, it is offered mostly correct as a copy and is sold even though expensive because it is of good quality. But only because it is expensive and of high quality, a copy does not become an original. Komtur: "If this is probability enough for a collector to pay what ever for such a cross, is a decision, that everyone must make by himself." I agree without limitation. Regards Uwe (I beg your pardon for my insufficient English)

Komtur, I think and hope, that we agree in some points for an original. Originals are awarded decorations and/or authorized produced pieces in the award period. In the award period. The award period for a PlM ended in 1918. It is not helpful, to compare PlM copies with a disputable piece from 1840, produced (authorized?) in the award period. Kind Regards Uwe

Komtur, you contradict yourself! "even if it is not "the real thing". You know, and we all know, that it is not the real thing! Yes, it could be "a fine piece of metal", but that does not replace the word copy/fake, and that can not transfer a copy to an original, never. Such a transfer is only possible in the head of some collectors, but not in the reality. A PlM made post 1918 is not an original, but I accept, it could be a fine copy. Regards Uwe

Hi, Daniel Cole: "They're not award pieces, they are copies, or in harsher words Fakes,..." Daniel, thank you very much That is the first and most important fact for this subject. Uwe

Reverse No maker marks Uwe

Hi, this is another piece in the wide range of varieties.

Hi cabbell2207, Deutscher Sch?tzenverband (D.Sch.V.) = German Shooting Association Grosse Auszeichnung f?r Schiessleistung = large decoration for marksmanship Different classes, often with a hanger or more for the year(s) of the award (see the two holes at the bottom). Regards Uwe

Hi Mark, first line handwritten? That is very easy: Unteroffizier d. Res. [der Reserve] Heinrich Rohde 5. Kompagnie d. I.R. 91 [infanterie-Regiment 91] --- Im Felde, den 4. April 1918 v.Hohnhorst Oberstleutnant u. Regimentskommandeur Last rank of v.Hohnhorst was Generalmajor in the Reichsheer. Regards Uwe

Hi, I can assist Rick, it is definetely not a call to join the Army. Please see here the "Erster Hanseatenappell Hamburg 1913" http://www.german-militaria.de/details/d17422.html I think that it is a roll call for a close and better collaboration between the Hanse cities, especial in economic development and expansion. Regards Uwe

Hi, some additions: ?RJEM b > ?sterreichische Regierungs-Jubil?ums-Erinnerungsmedaille in Bronze f?r Ausl?nder 1908 PRLM 3. > that could be bayerische Prinzregent Luitpold-Medaille 3. Klasse [in Bronze] PEK 2. > preu?isches Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse MVK.2. m/Schw. > bayerisches Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern PEK 1. > preu?isches Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse DAz. 2. > bayerische Dienstauszeichnung 2. Klasse The Oberleutnant must be Egersd?rfer, 3. bayerisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Prinz Leopold. Please see here another "Musiker" with ?RJEM b and PRLM 3: http://www.ingolstadt.de/stadtmuseum/scheu...en/milmus07.htm Regards Uwe

Hi, I can report about a high decorated German General. 1917 Generalmajor 1919 mit der gesetzlichen Pension und dem Charakter als Generalleutnant zur Disposition gestelllt 1939 Charakter als General der Infanterie However, this last rank is noted officially, e.g. in the "Lexikon der deutschen Generale". But on some web pages he is noted with the last rank Generalleutnant. Regards Uwe

Hi Henry 24, a very interesting medal Uwe

Hi, this is the center medaillon of a "St. Heinrichs-Orden Kommandeur 2. Klasse" made by G.A. SCHARFFENBERG GOLDSCHMIED F.D.K.S. ORDENSKANZLEI DRESDEN, SEESTR. 16 Regards Uwe

Hi sivart, it is not a tinnie, it is a membership badge. NS.-Kriegsopferversorgung NSKOV Please see here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS-Kriegsopferversorgung http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSKOV Regards Uwe

Hi Peter, I could find nothing about an "Abzeichen f?r Volksdeutsche". H?sken 4th edition does not list the "Volksliste Saar" furthermore. There remains a mystery, sorry! About the "Volkssozialistische Selbsthilfe der Pfalz": http://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de...l/artikel_44964 Regards Uwe

Hi Peter, two possible institutions: Volksliste Saar (national list Saar), sympathizer badge (Heering/H?sken 3rd edition, No. A103a) or, I think better: Volkssozialistische Selbsthilfe (national-socialist self-help), members badge (Heering/H?sken 4th edition, No. 5630a) Regards Uwe

Hi Robert, for August Wittmann please see here: http://www.mymilitaria.com/liste/ek2wittmann.htm Differing signatures 1940 and 1945! The other name is Allescher. And not Dr. Allescher, because it is Meinem lieben Fr. (Fr. = Freund = friend) Allescher. Regards Uwe

Hi Max, the last rank for Erwin von Heimerdinger, "re-enlisted" in WWI, was Generalmajor. Later he had connections with an occult organization, the "Germanenorden"; he was the chancellor for some time. Please see here, page 131: http://books.google.de/books?id=9hMP5ZMu6b...esult#PPA131,M1 Uwe

Hi Max, Oberstleutnant von Heimerdinger commander of the 4. W?rttembergisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 65 Regards Uwe

Hi, I must come up once more. It is absolutely indisputable that this is a Turkish medal. Up to now I supposed that a forum is for discussions. "Article 7: One who hasn't earned a BRONZE War Medal would not be not awarded the kind of gold and/or silver Liyakat (merit) and Imtiyaz (loyalty to the State and bravery) medals which were supposed to be received in a war." Even other Turkish honourings were given to the general of the Infantry, the Mejidie Order 1. Class and the Imtyaz Medals in Silver and Gold. After the TWM, see above. Therefore this TWM (maker BB&Co) must be a war time decoration. All the decorations of this general of the infantry are contemporary, why should he buy just a (low) foreign award post WWI? Very often foreign governments (Turkey) sent an award with documents to the government of the owner of the decoration (Prussia), because no opportunity existed to hand over the honouring personally. Is it possible, that the Prussian (or even before the Turkish) government changed the medal in the original envelope? Because it was for a general of the infantry with highest Prussian and foreign (Bavaria, Saxonia, W?rttemberg, Austria, Bulgaria and other countries) awards? Is that completely impossible/excluded? Regards Uwe

Hi, I can only say, that there is no other TWM or other case for a TWM in the set of orders and decorations of this "General der Infanterie". He had some more high ranked Turkish orders and decorations. Regards Uwe