XEN

Hi Jock, Deutschbein was granted his M1 licence (for "Behörden-Hoheitsabzeichen" not for political badges) in the fourth quarter of 1938. The serial number on the badge in post #1 would put its award date (to the wearer) into 1934/5 when Deutschbein didn't have a licence to produce anything at all yet.

There is a number of discussions about this over on hj-research.com and it seems clear that Nimmergut is to blame for the confusion with this MM. Patzwall wrote a very good article on the various HJ honour badges back in 2004 mainly in order to correct Nimmergut but along the way he showed exactly why "BM1/122" cannot be an authentic MM. For example, 122 is Deutschbein but that company's M1 licence was not for badges.

The situation is not as you describe. More here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=662601

Hi Odulf, No problem. Glad to help

From the Hitler Youth Forum: "There is sometimes the perception that these sports badges were only awarded to the winners of an event during the Reich youth sports competition but actually the competition was much fairer than that. Despite its name of 'Siegernadel' (winners badge) the purpose of the badge was to act as an outward sign of achievement and rather than having to win an event to qualify the boy or girl instead had to achieve a minimum points total of 180 points spread over three events. This meant that a weakness in one event could be made good by a particularly good performance in another. The three events were: HJ 100m sprint Long-jump Indian club throw (weight 500g) BDM (including BDM-Werk Glaube und Schönheit) 75m sprint Long-jump Throwing a ball (weight 80g) DJ and JM 60m sprint Long-jump Throwing a ball (weight 80g) Points were awarded according to a table organised into age bands. For example a 10 year-old DJ boy who jumped 3.24m would receive 60 points toward his total. If he jumped 4.04m he would receive 100 points. To receive the same points total a 14 year-old would have to jump 3.87m and 4.67m respectively. Those with the top results in the single disciplines were awarded a certificate in addition to the badge. There were also team events during the Reichssportwettkampf. The top 10 individual results from the Gefolgschaft (or equivalent) level were added together and the best teams went on to compete at Bann level. The best of these then competed at the Gebiet championship with the winners there representing their Gebiet at the Sommerkampfspiele der HJ (HJ Summer Games)".

Hi, I wouldn't go as far as using the word 'prowess' Here's more on the badge and the competition: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f25/hj-reichssportwettkampf-winners-badges-qualification-1071/

Hi, There's one of those here on the Hitler Youth Forum.

Where did I say that I bought a copy? I said that the red badges are currently considered to be fakes. Of course you are free to spread your wisdom around the internet as you see fit. I'm only asking you to consider the impact of this wisdom and also to consider whether you are actually right... I'll refrain from going down to your level so no insults from me. I have much better things to do with my time.

The implication is there even though you didn't actually use the word and you know it. Please note your use of the word 'considered'. That's not proof and therefore means only this:: any BROWN (BROWN) badge which does not look like yours or the other badge from a known recipient is a fake. That's pretty arrogant actually and I can easily imagine why such a stance may be necessary... I'm talking in general terms about money changing hands by the way and not specifically about his badge.

I didn't jump to conclusions. The way you worded your question made it sound as if you doubted the originality of the Croatian badge. I wasn't about to leave that hanging in the air. I haven't answered any posts made by Warlord because a. They weren't addressed to me personally. I certainly can't see a post which refers to me or addresses anything I said. b. I already know about the red badges and for the tenth time - I am not discussing my badge here anyway. I am making a general point about proof and evidence. I have no intention of selling the red badge. At the moment they are viewed as fakes and selling fakes isn't my style. This has nothing to do with egos. Certainly not with mine anyway. It's about the truth - or rather the search for it. You left our forum in a hissy fit which was your choice. No-one asked you to leave and as far as I know you're still a member and are welcome to contribute to the forum whenever you wish. You don't have the answers on the brown DF and all you are doing is clutching at anything which will add to the only evidence you have: 1. I got it from the vet personally. 2. It looks like the other badge with a known recipient. Again. Is that enough information for you to go onto a forum and tell someone effectively that their badge is a fake (post 1 in this thread)?

Colin, You're trying to second-guess me instead of just sticking to the matter at hand. If you want to continue to believe that I have a 'dog in the race' then there is nothing more I can do to change that. As far as being unfriendly goes I would refer you to your performance on the thread in the Hitler Youth forum which predates this discussion.... I'm not 'demanding' anything of you. I'm simply making a general point on proof and evidence. I could give you individual answers on the points you made in your last post but I'm going to cut to the chase to illustrate what you seem unable to understand so let me ask you a question on the Croatian DJ in return: Can you prove that the badge is a fake? No, you can't and so we're back nicely to the point I've been making all along. I've researched the Croatian DJ to the best of my ability and with the resources available to me and I'm happy that it is a good original. If you have any evidence to the contrary please feel free to post it. Actually though I could make the whole thing easier by just telling you that the badge came from a veteran of the Croatian DJ. Your approach to collecting would seem to dictate that you would have to swallow the story because subjective experience is evidence according to you. Your subjective experience is worth nil as soon as that badge leaves your collection. Basically what you are saying about the badge in post #1 is this: 'I got my badge from a vet - your badge doesn't look like mine and one other where the recipient is known - so yours is likely to be a fake...'. Is that really enough? Is that irrefutable evidence? No, of course it isn't but it doesn't stop huge amounts of money changing hands. I'm out of here.

Hi Colin, I can see from your post that you still don't understand what I said above and elsewhere. I'll admit that the tone of my post is a little unfriendly - as is yours incidentally - but in my defence it gets quite frustrating trying to discuss a matter with someone whose argument is based wholly on something I never said and who runs away in a hissy fit because someone 'dared' to question. This and the other discussion have nothing to do with my badge. If you read my posts you'll see that. I have never attached any authenticity to my badge and nor will I unless I find proof that this type is either fake or period and believe me I'd be happy either way. All I'm searching for is that often elusive evidence. So yes, we were discussing this particular badge but (for me anyway) only to illustrate a point which is this (and it ain't rocket science of course...): these forums are full of 'wisdom' which is not always based in fact and only becomes 'wisdom' because enough people agree (or need to agree because they have money tied up) and then go on to spread that 'wisdom' around the internet. Eventually 'wisdom' becomes 'fact' even when the true origin lies often in half-'truths', downright lies, stories, supposition, anecdotes, subjective experience and often quite amateurish 'detective work'. Nevertheless, if repeated often enough these things can have the power to convince large sections of the collecting community of an item's authenticity (or otherwise) and thus influence their decisions on whether to part with often large sums of money or not. This is nuts and is what I was exploring. As you say, it is often impossible to meet all of the requirements on a given item which would allow one to state that it is 100% period and that is where discussion can play its part and it should never be stifled through silly comments like 'You don't believe it? I don't care.' You can't, by your own admission, make a watertight case FOR your brown Distinguished Foreigner because your evidence consists of subjective experience, anecdotal 'evidence' and comparison with 'known originals'. You're not alone in this dilemma of course as it applies to many, many of the things we collect but if you ever sell your badge you'll no doubt describe it as an original even though you admit that this can't be proven. Mad hobby isn't it? Almost as mad as your theory about the pink party badge. Now if you'd said 'pink Distinguished Foreigner'..... For my part I've decided that this game is too risky for me. I've stopped collecting and will be going back to my books and to the history because they satisfy my need to know that what I see and hear can be cross-referenced and proven. The only items I'll be keeping are those where I can prove that they are period and believe it or not that is sometimes possible! I hope this discussion proves useful to anyone who turns it up on a search. Cheers.

It takes a long neck for someone to say anything definitive about these badges Colin and we have discussed this before. The internet can be a powerful thing but it should always be used with caution and with respect for its influence and I for one would love to see your evidence and I mean EVIDENCE and not the 'wisdom' you have seen on some forum and now see fit to plagiarise and purvey as the truth. I'd love to see anyone's evidence on these badges actually. The usual comment of 'all HJ distinguished foreigner badges must have a brown border and no maker name' comment stems from one US collector who apparently scored two such badges from a veteran. In my book there is definitely room for more research but you now seem comfortable enough to begin criticizing pin plates and geometrics.... Please enlighten us and name your irrefutable source.

Hi, FAKE!!

Very nice Don. Mine is the larger size too.

I wrote: "Motor-HJ is incorrect as only the black post-1938 straps began to show distinctions between the various HJ organisations - Flieger-HJ, Motor-HJ etc." My apologies because that is in fact complete rubbish. The brown straps showed the following distinctions: Bright red piping - General HJ Light red - Motor-HJ Flieger-HJ - blue Nachrichten-HJ - yellow Landjahr - green Members of Gebiet and RJF staff - karmesin Source: Organisationsbuch der NSDAP 1937

The key with this badge is: is it going cheap? It's not a known fake (at the current state of play) so it has a chance. As others have said there are too few 'definites' with these badges for anyone to say anything really meaningful as far as this particular badge is concerned. There are undisputed originals of course and these are what govern everyone's choices about which type/configuration to go for. If this one is going cheap I'd give it a go and then treat it as a work in progress. Don will definitly get to the bottom of this when it comes time for him to start studying these badges I'm sure XEN AKA Schmusi (it's ok, I apologised! )

What an a###hole! Makes me angry this kind of blatant dishonesty... Like you say though Don, the cert will convince someone to part with his money.

Yep, same badge.... Well spotted Joe. Where is the badge for sale Don? (I'm assuming you found it on an auction or dealer site).

Meistersch?tze:

After more digging I found the book I was looking for This is the special HJ shooting book for the Scharfsch?tze and Meistersch?tze classes. Now all I have to do is find one of these books for myself!

Hi Joe. I've attached a pic of the reverse of his Meistersch?tze. If you follow this link you'll find the badges at post #26: http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/showthre...eistersch%FCtze There are two other good Meistersch?tze in that thread actually. The thread starts with a M1/102 copy but there is another good badge (M1/63) at post #15. At post #14 there is a M1/102 badge but some of the contributors were discussing whether this manufacturer actually had a contract for these badges . That said, it looks good and doesn't display the characteristics of the known bad M1/102 makers mark at post #1. Can you help out with the makers Don?

Just a quick update on this one: over on another forum there is a chap showing his grandfather's HJ shooting badges - all three grades and with clear provenance I've fired off a PM to him asking whether he knows anything more about the award criteria for the silver and gold levels - when and under what conditions etc. If I get an answer I'll post it here with his permission. Meanwhile here is a scan of the badges. Interesting to see that the same award card was used for all levels. Also good to see the number awarded at that point.

Thanks Don. I posted the following on another site actually a while back after translating the requirements for each class from the boy's shooting book I mentioned earlier: Shooting distance 50m. Target is changed after 5 shots. Target has 12 rings - outer ring worth 1 point and bullseye worth 12. DJ leaders aged 14+ were eligible to shoot for this badge. Anf?ngerklasse: Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 25 points with no single shot being worth less than 4 points unless target is hit 5 times. Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 20 points with no single shot being worth less than 3 points unless target is hit 5 times. Ausbildildungsklasse: Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 35 points with no single shot being worth less than 6 points unless target is hit 5 times. Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 30 points with no single shot being worth less than 5 unless target is hit 5 times. Sonderklasse: Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 45 points with no single shot being worth less than 8 points unless target is hit 5 times. Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 40 points with no single shot being worth less than 7 points unless target is hit 5 times. Kneeling position. Must achieve 30 points with no single shot being worth less than 5 points unless target is hit 5 times. I'd love to find the regulation governing the silver and gold class of the badge as this would surely show how they were awarded.

Quick revision to my above post Don: I've never given much thought to these badges other than knowing what they are. If I'm honest I have to say that I had always believed Angolia's description to be correct. This discussion has prompted me to look a little deeper and in answer to your question about non-RZM or transitional pieces the answer is no, they can't have existed. It would definitely not have been possible for either the silver or gold class of the badge to have been around pre-RZM or indeed in the transitionary period because the three classes of shooting proficiency shown in the HJ shooting books carried by HJ and DJ boys led only to the award of one badge: the DJ badge or the basic HJ shooting badge. Here's why: all boys started in the Anf?ngerklasse. Once they had satisfied the marksmanship requirements in this class they were moved to the next highest group. The boys had to maintain the level of the next highest group otherwise they would be 'demoted' back down to the previous group. The aim was to reach the Sonderklasse. Once the standards required in the Sonderklasse had been met the boy was then eligible for the award of the basic HJ shooting badge. DJ leaders were also eligible to shoot for this badge. Angolia however describes the badges as follows: Anf?ngerklasse (basic shooting badge) Ausbildungsklasse (silver) Sonderklasse (gold) This isn't correct - certainly not up to and including 1941/42 anyway. I have a shooting book for a boy for that year and it still shows the three classes mentioned in 'HJ im Dienst' from 1935. The boy in question received only the basic HJ shooting badge (number 197326) after completing all three classes- not the gold badge as Angolia suggests. A logical conclusion of course otherwise there would be equal numbers of all grades of the badge around today and as we know this isn't the case. So what were these other badges awarded for? I'm unaware of a special HJ shooting book showing any criteria for this. I wonder if they were awarded due to results achieved at organised shooting events - possibly at Bann or even Gebiet level. What does Littlejohn say about the award criteria for the gold and silver grades Don? Was there an award certificate or progress booklet similiar to the normal HJ/DJ shooting book? I've certainly never seen a booklet but I would imagine that some kind of award certificate for such a prestigious badge would have existed at least... I will try to find confirmation for the introductory dates for the silver and gold classes.