RedNoseScout

Original naval zeppelin badges looking at the reverse should show the crown and wreath as separate pieces joined together. U’ll see a fine line often between the crown and the rest of the badge. A Godet may be harder to notice. Attached is a Meybauer reverse crown showing the separation. Hope this is helpful.

Jasta Unit on the Western Front 1918. Fokker DVVIi or Fokker DVIi.8? w the modified engine exhaust? Trying to identify the unit. Note the windburn or sunburn face of the pilot on top of the engine cowling. He flew this plane and I am trying to identify using Norman Frsnks research on Jasta Pilots. It’s a needle in a haystack so far!

Can anyone tell me anything about this Napoleon gold stickpin? I’ll add a pix of the knurled pin.

Lew that’s a killer photo of a naval formal parade jacket and Godet Observer. I think Pandis shows only 4 Naval Godet pilot badges in his book but I’m gonna re-check. Great stuff. Naval stick pins r getting harder to find! Thank u for sharing. Attaching a few naval pilot stickpins for ur pleasure. Erik

Ur godet observer is stunningly beautiful. The carved out eagle eyes. ? Is that a Meybauer mark on the stickpin? For comparison r these two godet pilot samples. Note the silver on some worn spots.

Beautiful beautiful beautiful

SR et al if anything, I've unfortunately exposed a great weakness about this site. These last two threads I’ve posted showing engraved badges has turned some responses into an obvious hatchet jobs. Notice when Vince speaks up to say that this is a period engraving... why is he is ignored? Notice when Tomas is rebuffed by John for saying a steersman is not a "flying job" - again the comment is ignored. And when I politely point out the ridiculously obvious that someone has stuffed a Rothe badge into a Zimbler case, I’m ignored. The obvious gets ignored and each time it becomes an opportunity for one the complaining crows to sidestep and repeat the insultingly insane canard that these r fake engravings on real badges. There is no judge in this courtroom.... no moderator. It’s a jungle for opinions only. Every argument I post will be ignored or swatted away by a select few claiming fiefdom for their righteous opinion. Reading the recent posts it’s become a street fight on an unmoderated forum. I have received quite a few private emails from world class collectors and dealers with decades of experience who no longer post on this site. One even wrote me in reply to the wild comments being made: —- You say crazy? I say stupid. Elmar (Enzo) is the only person on GMIC who is worth reading, when it comes to AH pilot badges. R. 2022-04-14 17:57 GMT+02:00 > > There r some crazy people on GMIC lol but I love Enzo. —- It is clearly obvious that I am only digging a deeper hole if I keep posting. It’s probably a waste of my time to write more but I share it for the inexperience reader who may find use in it: My first observation — that if the engraving were done with a rotary pen, Enzo, Tomas and Sandro would have been immediately on my tail pointing it out upfront. Their initial silence speaks volumes. I also note Tomas isn’t wasting his time nor John anymore on these threads. For good reason. Enzo’s judgment I most respect. And he is silent for good reason too. As was told to me yesterday by one the greatest living museum conservators who handles priceless artifacts, he learned a long time ago never to pronounce on the authenticity of an object that he cannot examine in hand, and with his own lighting and magnification equipment. What appears one way in a photograph may appear completely different "in life". Might good advice for the crows on this site. By the way, SR , I know exactly what u meant - by plunge marks from fake Vietnam Zippo lighters. I lived thru that war and we collected them back then. They are LARGE and obvious... it is a heart-felt exaggeration - as someone said - you can see them from 10 feet across the room. Fekete is much more refined - this engraving - and I have expert jewelers who have seen this engraving. It was pointed out to me by another dealer w 40 years experience that u and Sandro make a good team. He's an excellent cheerleader. Although SR I don't see u holding urself out per se as the "expert" on A-H badge engravings from Rock Hill, South Carolina, I am wondering if u have been put up to do a hit job on this innocent badge. Maybe I splashed without paying my obeisance to the household gods on this site, except now it’s plunge marks instead of the 1908 gifting date. I operate openly in good faith. Maybe not w the right eloquence for this site. Fortunately I’m getting info on the bios from fellow doctorates and researchers who care about what is important. This too is my last post on these two threads - further from anyone would seem superfluous, silly.

Good and Kind Enzio. Thank you for ur reply. I never thought there could only be two case engraved badges and in Pandis’s book he separates the engraved badges from the cases to really make it hard to get a reliable heads up. What’s enjoyable is learning perhaps a couple of handful case engraved badges still exist. And seeing them! Still rare specimens. I’ll start forming my observations as questions to lower the heat on this site. I’m not the final answer but I know how to ask good questions and eventually get the answers. Everything I am doing is an inquiry. There is no right or wrong - just evidence (sometimes) on what survives. And sometimes that is not much to go on. Ur Rothe is a lovely sample. I assume it’s undocumented as r most badges. Even without provenance, it is still a legit badge and engraving. Congratulations on owing one of the most highly sought and rarest and beautiful AH pilot badges. U must have had it a long time. What I don’t understand is why it was fitted in a Zimbler case as Zimbler never sold Rothe badges. Is it a married case to the badge? Ur not a novice. Whatever ur answer I appreciate ur insights. The light reflection on ur Rothe makes it difficult to see the maker mark on the pin of ur very rare and lovely sample. Is ur pin stamped by the maker? I’m attaching a copy of the Rothe and Nephew maker mark. I note the Rothe Crown Jewels r missing on ur sample and mine. Do u collect AH and German Pilot Badge group sets? FAI license? Do u have an estimate based on ur personal knowledge how many case engraved pilot or aircrew badges exists? How many Rothe AH Pilot badges exist? Someone just offered me a hat pin badge from the Austrian Air Force. It’s nice to see the rich flow of history Austria is honoring in the design from the Empire era. Ur replies r alway much anticipated and appreciated. Erik

Here’s the back pin. It’s really stunningly beautiful to see in person. But the solder on the back is typical of WW1 pin attachment

Tifes. Great reply. I’m not a big fan of eMedals bc so much stuff is junk (but Barry who owns the site is very interesting) - so we now have 3 known if the eMedal is legit. I am assuming it is for purposes of this email. Pretty damn rare stuff - right? How often do u come across a badge and get to learned who it belonged to? I e done that many times. It’s the biggest rush. I have Fekete’s records partially from Veinfurter. I figure some of u cats know know where and how to dig up details especial on German sites. Anyway if u can add more on his bio, Tomas, I would be grateful. R u a collector by the way? U have been very helpful to me by the way. Enzio - do u care to pipe in on this lovely displayed?

Santos

GD Santos. I can live w ur uncharitable remarks bc I am in an inquiry. The evidence is what it is. Inquiries r never personal. They r for revealing the truth. Even if it includes uninvited and inappropriate remarks to satiate ur ego. If I learn more from this site great. If not that’s ok too. U could have commented one that fabulous badge or the background info on Fekete - but I just keep getting a sense u r going to keep knocking me down. I’m not afraid from making a mistake and learning about it on this site. No one cares about ur opinion about me - I certainly don’t. Nor does my publisher. I am interested in learning the truth about what I hold in my hand. Pl don’t get hooked bc I asked a question or make an assertion on the number of case engraved badges. Bottom line is there are not many original ones. If u stick to the data - I might learn how smart u really are rather than how important u r. U certainly have been useful on Popov if again in an unchivalrous way with me. The value is in his the story. Ur link u sent opened me to a world of useful data and new contacts. Now if u care to add on Fekete’s story as a living being, I would be honored. There r others reading and watching. I hope u will be more useful moving the conversation forward. Thank u.

So it was Dec 1908 ? thank u

It has mystery for sure…. I am almost exhausted from reading everything ? it’s all good. Really. We each control our own destiny. But keep going - my GMIC score just went up a lot lol. Anyway… here’s a new post Tomas, Enzio, el. al. I’m asking for some help. What category should I post badges under in the future? ur comments r invited.

Is this a WW1 Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte Stickpin? I’ll posit the back later. Early ww1 war pin mount. Silver. Stunningly beautiful.

Enzio: Again I am very grateful. This must be him. Jörg Christian Steiner How delightfully useful is ur input! He has many attractive books. Which do u would recommend? U r expanding my reach for understanding. Yes ur words r right about evidence to support facts. ? I like also that u ask questions. U r a good teacher. And a kind one.

Yes. Great point. That’s a big topic in my book. The text books make mistakes. More than just a few though they serve greatly. All of them. That’s why u need them all to compare and contrast. Michael was way ahead of his time and it must be kept in context. Panda did not upgrade his evaluation in his second volume. This is unfortunate. New data and information is out there. The volumes I am preparing are very limited in their broad scope. Michael I admire most for his spirit in an age of uncertainty. U r right to point this out in the context of his time. U r in ways a historian and an honest one. I am ur equal in curiosity. Like I said. My enthusiasm is self evident. I am not perfect. Hardly. But his book is a solid piece of research and I recommend it highly as I am sure u do w appropriate caveats. Thank u for ur contribution. Why tlfes?

Santo. Ur dissent is noted. Ur r enhancing by ur debate the value of this badge. ? In context of only 1917-18 - u r right. But the evidence leads elsewhere for which I duly will note ur thoughts in the AH volume and why they are unsupported by the evidence. U educate by ur objection for which I am grateful. Where I see differently bc of u, i will give more credit. Because u r fearless in ur self expression. Amd that takes heart. And that I deeply admire.

My research shows there are only two known caed engraved AH pilot badges. Does anyone want to give comment? I know of only four case engraved pilot badges of the central powers - if u go by the three leading text books. Two are pictured bellow. On the right is the AH pilot badge worn by Oksar Fekete. My grandfather is in the background photo for the curious. For pleasure is the reverse side and the engraving of Oskar Fekete’s beautiful all original classic Zimbler AH pilot badge - the make and model u already know. There is no doubt it is his. For those who demand more (I have a hunch I already know who u r ?) I provide w deep gratitude to the tireless historian Robert Vienfurter who happily published (I’m sure) Fekete’s Daily Mission Report below. The signature is spot on. The military shorthand - last name period then the first 2 letters of a first name. What does that tell u about the man’s military character? I bought this unknown - the pilot’s name - it had long been forgotten. I got lucky. But that’s partly because I knew where to look. Now I need help. I need Fekete’s military records and post war life and a picture of him. He was a capable administrator. He survived the war. How many kills did he have? Was he a desk job man because of injury? There is joy and adventure in his rediscovered story. This is what a real named case-engraved badge looks like. I hope u like it. Some of u might even be blown away. ? I was. This is the tyoe of memorabilia I’ll be publishing. For the specialist, note the maker mark on flat metal and the rivets. Any help in ur enjoyment of an answer or comment on information is much appreciated. I’m bringing them back to life one story out a time.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Tomas has done a wonderful job of explaining the possible reason for 1908 as this was when Popov got apparently started in the flying business. I am waiting on a reply from a friend who has an FAI pilot data base to see what it reveals on Popov. I think it's time to post something new! The evidence doesn't suggest the engraving was made to deceive. Why not German? Why not a different date? It's too easy to ruin a good badge with a bad engraving - and how many of you have seen a bad engraving on a legitimate AH badge? On the fake badges of course - many. But on a real, time-period AH badge? After the death of King FJ1 - who passed on away on December 30, 1916, there was a transitionary period in badge design over the next 5 1/2 months until the final new regs came out on what constituted a proper badge. I intend to post on that as I have some really cool unpublished transitionary pieces. An area of great interest to me. Fortunately, we don't have that issue with this badge because it is spot on compliant. This Russian pilot is obscure in the annals of history to most people. He must have been a pretty cool guy and good pilot. The key to understanding this engraving is fortunately 1908 - the year Popov got started. We have a story to share with it. If he had begun in 1915 or some other date, then the evidence wouldn't match and we would have a different conversation. But it does match with his start date. Unlike opinions, assertions are based on the evidence. Given the alignment of facts - the pilot name, the start year of flying career, and the forensics of the badge and engraving itself - i assert that this was likely a postwar engraving. The evidence suggests - given the pilot name and date he got started - that this was likely a gift between friends. Beyond that - it is enriched story I am afraid. What's great is that this rare piece has no mistake based on the evidence - it can be explained. Forgers rarely think on the level Sandro is discussing - this is an assertion based on looking at hundreds of forged badges and that conversation deserves a separate link. Our badge has mystery with it - yes - but strictly based on forensic analysis of known explainable facts - it has no mistakes. The 1908 can be explained because of Tomas's research. Stay tuned Tomas for my next new topic on AH case engraved badges. How many of you have ever own or have ever held a real one? More importantly, with all the information about this engraved aircrew badge, would that stop any of you from wanting to own it?

Enzio: I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner. Let me clarify. I’ve been in aviation since I was 4. I got interested in badges in 1967. I dn become a serious collector until 4 years ago after a year of dabbling when I got the bug. There’s apparently no cure fore it. ? Check out this link: https://gmic.co.uk/topic/5741-id-weird-a-h-flying-badges/page/3/ 20 years ago the dust was just starting to settle on what were legit badges. The current reference books were not even written except maybe Michael M. Edelstein brilliant treatise called Wings of Grace and Valor it was on K.u.K. Aviation Badges (2004). One of the best ever if not the best on the subject. Shame he never got to see a cased AH pilot badge. I’ll post on those separately. I’m still trying to understand how to use this site so bear w me. Les was still learning the ropes in the above link. He developed a fabulous eye over the years and has been extremely helpful to me, too. When it comes to collecting, he knows how to walk on clouds w his reach. I am just a student stuck on the ground. I’m trying to understand better and share appropriately what I ’ve learned. I need to learn how to do this better. I am sometimes over excited in my discoveries. I’ve made many - mostly from the help of others. I don’t want to make mistakes. I want to understand. And find stories to relate to what we hold in our hands. To that extent will you walk backward w me? I know u know way more than me. I feel privilege to learn from u to better help me to tell the truth - so would u agree all of these below r real time-period Zimbler marks for starters? Of course u would. U know. Once we get past this point, it becomes a delicate inquiry. I’ll probably be wrong bc I am still researching reliable hearsay - and auction trends. There’s also a lot of reliability in seeing how often things repeat and at what price over time. Those things interest me. They partially tell me what is important to collect. Opinions r useful. But I go on facts as the evidence leads me. Now that I confirmed all the above, i will see if I can track down Popov’s heirs. I am a trained historian. It appears this badge is a gift between old friends after the war (swapping gifts?) it’s as valid as all the other interesting interpretations. It does not matter. This badge has no mistakes if looked at by the evidence and Enzio sums it up well. The 2908 is not a mistake. I have a friend who most of the FAI license recites. I’ll ask if he can pull a face. Ur clarity in thinking Enzio is refreshing. This badge has a mystery that Tifes has substantially solved enough to see if I can find what’s missing. I heard Zimbler died and his company went bankrupt after the war. But who knows anything about it’s revival in the 1950s?

Thank you Vince. John is amazing in knowledge and insight. I’ve only been at this for 4 years and what I am doing has never been done before. Rasti helped me w the original translation and Gerhard responded: It's still a beautiful zimbler piece but I still can't interpret the engraving! Tried again but the 1908 still confuses me ! the engraving is 100% original! best regards gerhard Personally I think it would be too dangerous for a forger to risk ruining a Badge this originally beautiful. I can easily live with mysteries if a specimen has no mistakes. I feel like I am an outlier on this site and your words are encouraging. Erik

Thank you Bayern for your post. It’s 3:30 am here and your post gave me a lift! As I write and research. Captive Balloon Observers are another fascinating area of research. The Feldluftschiffertruppe never seem to get any glory and there will be a section on them too. I am very fortunate to include an album on the Feldluftschiffer - which I am still researching. Our hero in these photos (I don’t know his name yet but know who to ask because I also have his Zeppelin photo album) at some point transferred to an Army Zeppelin Abteilung. Here are 3 pictures from his observer album. He is in the basket. I hope you find them enjoyable. There is a great story to be told here and I hope to unconceal it. The ground support protection they had was insane. I’m looking forward to learning more from your help!

I am writing an 11 volume reference series on Central Powers Vintage Aviation Memorabilia. One volume will be exclusively on WW1 aviation photographs including hundreds of original pilot photograph from unpublished albums including Zeppelins, Naval Pilots, Bavarian, Austro-Hungary and Turkish photographs. I’m am researching and bringing back to life their stories in short essays. This collection is comparable to the collection of Peter M Groz and includes some owned by him. It sad when I research and learn their stories and realized they are proud young and handsome - but not all lived. It’s different when you know their stories rather than look at a dull picture and just see a uniform. Can anyone help me in my research on the history of WW1 German parachutes? How do you translate the below? Ernest Udet survived too wearing a parachute but our dear Bavarian Lt d Res Max Ziegler (FFA46) wasn’t given one and died on May 20, 1916 near Arras together with his pilot Uffz. Alfonz Hollbeck. Ziegler was born May 30, 1996 in Strasburg. Note his beautiful Poellath Observer Badge. Shame they didn’t give them parachutes back then. Please share your thoughts. PS note Udet’s dog in the crash photo. I haven’t seen that in the other published photos. PS2 a few others for your enjoyment for you Zeppelin, AH, and Naval NCO pilots collectors

Thank for ur kind comments and reply. Yes to answer ur question. The badge belonged to Leopold Urban. Unfortunately I was very tired when I posted and typed the wrong first name!!! Very nice to make ur a acquaintance. I’m sure I am going to learn a lot of new things from u. Thank u again.