ThaiDave
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Posts posted by ThaiDave
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Hi Macchianera72,
A little worn, but looks like a genuine example. You can see the fine detail, and compare for example with the other copies in earlier parts of the the thread.
Rgds
Dave
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Hello Hoveyli,
This is a Thai copy of the Prabas Mala medal (commemorating King Rama V trip to Europe in 1897). Although the original was made in France, this is a copy and the case is a fantasy. These, along with many other similar fabrications, can be found in Bangkok, ebay, and elsewhere; starting around $40 or so and up. If you search thoroughly, you may even find the shop where they are made. They are also often found in German and European auctions, without much regard for indicating they are copies.
Even without knowing anything about these specific copies, or the details of the actual types actually made - It is pretty easy to see that it is a copy, as the quality of the strike, although seems ok at first, is not up to mint standards (compare say with a nearly unused coin for the quality of strike expected), and check the case on the insides show the original pre-aged cloth (check under the cloth on the back and between threads, etc). (Usually they are not real silver either, but some are found in silver and real gold.)
On the other hand, from a Thai perspective, a copy like this is ok in it's right place - as King Rama V is highly venerated and having anything with his likeness is appreciated - especially if it is old-like with a nice appearance. For comparison, many people would be happy to have a Monet print on their wall, and not be plussed by it not being an original. Only a serious collector would be concerned for the difference.
There are many different types of medals in this (Monnaie de Paris) copy series.
Rgds
Dave
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Hi All,
This North Korean / PRC Safe Conduct Pass is shown at this website: http://www.psywarrior.com/NKoreaH.html
Rgds
Dave
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And a Safe Conduct Pass - looks like for US/Korean POW in Chinese prisoner camp !
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Hi All,
A Vietnam-era (1964) Navy Training Course Certificate
Rgds
Dave
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Hi All,
Something interesting - Letter to my Father from Czech President in Exile Returning for Liberation of Czechoslovakia
Rgsd,
Dave
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Hi All,
Something interesting - 1944 FRONTPOST Allied Weekly Newspaper for German Soldiers - WW2 Newspaper.
Rgsd,
Dave
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Hi All,
Something interesting - Free Philippines Airborne WW2 Newspaper.
Rgsd,
Dave
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bmsm,
Some (North ?) Korean propaganda leaflets
Rgds
Dave
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Hi bmsm,
Following are some Safe Conduct Passes that I found in my father's papers. (I posted them to ebay, but thought they might be interesting to post here that folks can see them before they disappear)
Rgds
Dave
__________
Allied Safe Conduct Pass for German Soldiers - WW2
Warning to the Inhabitants of Combat Zones - French and English version - WW2
Indonesia - WW2 - Your Eyes and Ears Can Help - Indonesian and English Version
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Hi All,
I have some TR items from collecting when I was young and from my father that I want to pass along as this is not my area - a helmet, cap, dagger, medals, and other items.
After a search on the net, it seems a lot of places are scamy, and if possible I'd prefer the potential better price I could get by selling myself. Since ebay doesn't permit swastikas, where are good places to sell ?
Rgds,
Dave
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Pieter,
I see that the auction proposed a potential Thai award of 1919-1921. However, this is not concrete evidence that we can confirm that this specific medal type was used then.
1. The date of 1941 comes from official Thai medals department documentation. We presume that their own documentation is correct. The Thai medals and document department has been well established since at least the late 1800's and would cover this time before 1941. However, as probably none of us has read the documentation perfectly well in the original Thai, so it could be different. This is worth investigating further. However, first presumption would be that there is another legitimate explanation.
2. In all my discussions and research, I've seen only two cases which potential evidence of this type before 1941 (the case on this forum and another case on an old photo in Thailand presumed to be earlier than than 1941). I would presume that we would have more evidence if it was substantially before then. So as far back as 1920 seems less likely. However, probably we have not seen a large sample of such photos. It is worth looking for more early photos. This case is a good flag to look for earlier photos of him and hopefully show us something.
3. Just because we find a late model medal in a group does not mean it actually belongs to that group - could be fabricated group or for some other reason was added or replaced at a later time. We are presuming that the group is a good group because it is with a respected auction house, but it might not be for various reasons. There is a lot of fabricated stuff out there - In fact there are a lot of fabricated early Thai medals out there - like 99% of the Rama V material - but I don't see a financial reason to add this particular medal in this case (it wouldn't add any special value to this group by adding it).
4. It could be added later simply because it was not available at the time. The medal itself would typically not been provided - just a certificate. So the owner could have added the actual medal later - thus not a period medal even though the award was period. Or for example the original medal could have been damaged or lost, so as to need replacing. It would be unlikely that we could discern from the group itself if it was assembled in 1920 or in 1939 or later. (The ribbon appears to be more modern, not an early watered ribbon.)
5. It could have been added afterwards by another person. It is not uncommon for a relative to put together a group later, or for a relative (think grandfather or father). I have had several requests for medals and ribbons for obsolete Indochinese medals by people who have lost them or relatives assembling such groups.
6. (or another legitimate reason I didn't think of off-hand)
I'm not saying that the Thai official documentation we think says 1941 could not be wrong or misunderstood. It is worth investigating further.
A first step would be to confirm the manufacturing date of the particular medal example. Often they are marked with this date, particularly the early ones. I sent a question to M&E to check this. Or someone who has a chance to handle it could look - check the back of the crown, or back of the medal (top or bottom), or inside (if brave enough to disassemble).
We may also contact the Thai medals document department to find if there really was an award to him at this time also (but this is hard to do). I have confirmed some awards from the early Thai gazettes in this way - but it is better if we have a specific expected date to confirm. This might help to confirm the award date.
I do notice that the manufacturing is quite nice - it seems to be a type made by Benson, which is very uncommon for this model. It does look a little large - perhaps it is actually a 3rd class model.
Rgds,
DaveP/S Some further info about him is here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160510
Photo of him in 1917 shows only 3 ribbons and not this one: http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portraitLarge/mw94593/Astle-Scott-Littlejohns?LinkID=mp75456&role=sit&rNo=0
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Posts of the Fake Siam version. (He has fakes of many or all of the others)
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Hi All,
It seems that Mike Shank has changed his ebay ID again, and now selling Victory medal fakes under the name "dlssha3"
See here:
(PDF print attached for historical reference)
He now identifies for example the Siam version as "VERY HARD TO FIND"
(PDF print attached for historical reference)
2015 10 11 FAKE WW1 Siam Thailand Victory Medal Full Size _ eBay.pdf
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Tim,
In post 78, the one in dark brown is the one from the ebay auction. The comparison example, in lighter brown closeup only, was previously being sold on ebay from UK as a "museum copy" about $25 . (My explanation was probably not clear enough above.)
The reason the prices get so high, is that people believe they are genuine. They are not filling a space for more than $300 when there are better copies for only $50 and space fillers for $25...
For a cheaper copy, there is one US seller always selling them for about $50 each. He has them made in Thailand. They are then aged. The seller identifies them as reproductions, but following sellers don't. These are more dangerous due to the aging, and sometimes people feel they are genuine or "local made" contemporary strikes.
There is another seller, Mike Shank, who is selling a whole fake line of Inter-allied Victory medals, including Siam, Cuba, Brazil, and all the others, plus fake US bars. Plus lots of other fake medals and patches. He used to get about $600 for the fake Siam, but as he got outed, this dropped now to $175 which doesn't always sell. He claimed that he didn't know how old they were and that they came from the SOS show in the us - bunk of course. This version is poor, and is marked "BRONZE" on the edge. He has changed his ebay name some times, now using mcstls. (See for example all these fakes just sold: http://www.ebay.com/sch/mcstls/m.html?item=221812633964&nma=true&hash=item33a510316c&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&orig_cvip=true&si=KFT2p7FAX%2F8qE5Vem0TMogOSfqk%3D&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684 (PDF attached for future reference) These fakes have been selling for years, so there must be hundreds of all of types of these fakes out there...
There are a couple UK sellers of copies which appear from time to time, but are cheaper and even more rough (one attached = $25).
See current ebay auctions (Links below and PDF attached and picture below):
UK Copy - aka Museum Copy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-COPY-of-the-WWI-Victory-Medal-for-SIAM-/121714491123?hash=item1c56bfbef3
US Reproduction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/b0070-WWI-Victory-Medal-Siam-Thailand-/381322844880?hash=item58c89cdad0
Then there are the copies listed in Laso:
Reproduction 1 - was made by Ernst Blass sometime back (maybe people remember when they first started seeing these ?). Liverpool medals for example has many of these (but used to only list a couple on their website - today I don't see them however).
Reproduction 2 (type with "covered ear") - not sure where it was made. (maybe anyone know the history of this one ?)
Rgds,
Dave
UK Copy - Medals WW1 Siam Victory Medal 1914 18 Full Size _ eBay.pdf
UK Copy - aka Musuem Copy - A Copy of The WWI Victory Medal for Siam _ eBay.pdf
US Reproduction - B0070 WWI Victory Medal Siam Thailand _ eBay.pdf
Mike Shank Copy - WWI Siam Victory Medal Siam Thailand _ eBay.pdf
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Hi All,
Another copy example just finished somewhat steeply on ebay at 280 GBP: http://www.ebay.com/itm/THAILAND-VICTORY-MEDAL-WW1-ORDER-OR-MEDAL-IN-VGC-/181834886011? (see auction pdf attached, and medal pictures below)
It seems to be the same striking, or its copy, of a copy previously sold in the UK (many were previously sold on ebay advertised as "museum copy"), but this today is a better example. See the hand details below for comparison.
Rgds,
Dave
2015 08 18 Thailand Victory Medal WW1 Order or Medal in VGC _ eBay.pdf
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Hi All,
A friend with family in Czech Rep. found a stash in his grandmother's attic of what seem to be US Army intelligence reports from the end days of WW2 and post WW2.
Any recommendations on who he might get in touch with who is interested in this type of thing ?
Rgds,
RDave
www.indochinamedals.com
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Hi Veteran,
From : Thailand’s Border Service and Freeman’s Safeguarding Medals, by Major Larry J. Redmon, The Journal of the Orders and Medals Society of America, Volume 51 Number 5, pages 29-30
Freeman's Safeguarding Medal
The FSM, which is higher in precedence than the Border Service Medal, was established by the Royal Thai Government in 1970 with the approval of the King. The medal was originally intended to recognize service against communist insurgents operating in various regions of Thailand's interior. It was also introduced to replace another award for interior service, the Interior Service Medal, for reasons that are not clear.
There are three types of the FSM - First Class, Second Class higher award, and Second Class lower award. The three types correspond to three descending levels of service recognized by the medal. From highest to the lowest, the three levels are bravery in action against insurgents, participation in an engagement against insurgents or wounded in action, and six months service in the field. The First Class and Second Class higher awards are distinguished by a suspension ribbon device. Except for the device, the medal is identical for all three types.
The shape of the badge of the FSM is a lozenge with equal sides, 35mm from corner to corner, and protruding from the middle of each side is a small triangle. In the center of the obverse is the emblem of the Thai Ministry of Defense on a plain field. The reverse is plain except for the circular inscription SHOULD DEFEAT THE BAD WITH THE GOOD in Pali. The badge is attached to a decorative suspender that has a slot for the suspension ribbon. The ribbon is suspended from a slotted rectangular brooch with a horizontal pin on the reverse inscribed on the obverse of the brooch in Pali is PROTECT PEOPLE'S FREEDOM. The badge brooch, and suspender are struck in copper and have a blackened finish.
The suspension ribbon is 35mm in width and consists of alternating red and white stripes, the red stripes 3mm in width and the white stripes 1.5mm in width. Ribbon devices are a shallow, gilt wreath for First Class awards and a gilt bomb-blast for Second Class higher awards. The ribbon for Second Class lower awards is unadorned.
Troubles by insurgents have ceased to be a major problem in Thailand, but the FSM is still awarded. Current awards are to military personnel, policemen, and members of paramilitary forces who participate in royal projects designed to improve conditions in remote areas and thus win the hearts and minds of the people. Like the BSM, there is no certificate for the FSM.
Rgds,
Dave
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Hi Charles,
It seems that they are gazetted for some periods. However, it might be a lot of effort to search thru old gazettes since BOT. If you PM me a potential dates when he could have been with the royal court, full name, and any other potentially useful information, I can potentially find something.
Rgds,
Dave0 -
Hi Stuka f,
I suppose this is a modern French made piece (modern but pre-1975). What I've seen that most people consider to be Lao made are quite crude (although Delande in Paris made some crude medals too...). (Photo of the back, which you don't have, might tell more for this medal especially.)
A piece like this went on French ebay on 2012 09 03 for 245 Euro (~US $315.76) - the seller listed it as a 1950's piece (cannot vouch the veracity, but I presume this might just be an estimate that it is not an older piece).
Recent French ebay prices of earlier normal French made pieces have been (2014 only) :
2014 02 22 - 363 Euro sold
2014 03 27 - listed at 800 Euro, but pulled (presumable sold off-ebay at a lower price)
2014 04 26 - listed at 450 Euro, but sold at best offer price (unknown price)
It's not the current Thai made version floating around (meaning, doesn't look like a copy).
Rgds,
Dave0 -
Hi Stuka f,
THe later French pieces can be quite shinny. Do you have a picture of the back ?
For more examples, see: http://indochinamedals.com/laos/ls01_order_of_the_million_elephants_and_the_white_parasol.html
Rgds,
Dave
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Hi All,
I've been using polypropylene archival protectors in binders. There are various sizes, they are archival, and in the presentation binders they are convenient to access and transport. I keep them laying flat.
http://www.rexart.com/ppc_start1.html#4672
http://www.rexart.com/ppc_nr_refills.html
For larger than 24" x 18", I use the Alvin print protectors (although these are not ideal, because they have a thick edge and take much more room - I found no alternative)
http://www.rexart.com/alv_print_protectors.html#12075
For the larger Alvin print protectors, I keep them in a Prat portfolio
http://www.rexart.com/ppc_s1_portfolio.html
(Portfolio is without the multi-ring clips, whereas presentation binder has the clips to hold the pages)
That's about the best I could find for archival protection.
However, if you go with a conservation service, I read that they will put into mylar envelopes and seal the edges. However, I don't know the details of any such service. (Still should probably keep in a large flat box, or one of the Prat portfolio for convenience.)
Rgds,
Dave
www.indochinamedals.com
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However, be cautious with the examples on Barry Turks website - one appears to be genuine but the other also listed as genuine appears to be a copy...
Regards,
Dave
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Hi medaille69,
This appears to be a genuine example (I saw it also in person at Kris's shop). The issue is the spot of Verdigris and residue on the front chest and left arm (big round area with darker color and small blue/green spots). If acquired, you might best address this to keep it from getting worse. There is a lot of info on google on verdigris. One possible treatment might be Verdi-Care - I haven't used it but it seems like it might be good (
Rgds,
Dave
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Thai/Siamese Victory Medals
in Inter-Allied Victory Medals of the Great War
Posted · Edited by ThaiDave
correcting auto-merge
Hi.
Speaking of this, a fake just listed on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/JR305-World-War-1-Victory-Medal-Siam-/201692847120?hash=item2ef5d49c10:g:wtMAAOSw8gVYA8w3
This is a Blass copy (Laslo referred to it as Repro 2).
The seller responded:
Thank you for the info., I see there are many types and thus it is up to the Buyer to know what they are bidding on as the details between the types can be very small to tell.
I will be happy to answer any questions I can.
Rgds
RDave
JR305-World War 1 Victory Medal-Siam.pdf