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art wall

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  1. That is a higher estimate than what others have suggested, but I can see your point. The city and date have been ground off, revealing the remnants of "Manchester". There are a few dings as well, thus my estimate of $15K. Had the inscription not been buffed off, I would estimate the value at $20-25K, with a documented goblet at $25k-30K. I think we are pretty close with valuation estimates. Having seen this goblet in hand, I really think that $15K is a good estimate. If one was going to see this at an auction house, I very much doubt it would bring $20K. If so, however, with paying the 20% com
  2. That is what the city and date appears to show. It is very worn, as an attempt to grind it completely off was made. To determine this precisely, one would need futher analysis, such as what is done for "filed off" serial numbers on guns. This requires a ferrous material, however.
  3. I took photos, but the faint impressions of the letters and digits may not show up well. Certainly they were "washed out" on the initial photos that Mike sent us. The part that shows up the best is the "M, A, T, E, and R" from "Manchester" and the "20" and "17" from the 1917.
  4. Mike had sent me the goblet to analyze (thanks!) and it was pretty interesting. Using magnification, I was able to determine that "Manchester" and the date "20.10.1917" was engraved into the "blank" plate, yet had been removed by abrasion at some point in the past. Therefore, the goblet was not blank at all, yet shows another "raid" which has not previously been shown on Thor Ehrenbechers.
  5. After further consideration, Mike decided to keep the goblet. It was nice to see the images and I am glad that he allowed them to be posted for examination.
  6. PS- I do not claim to be an "expert" or authority on ehrenbechers by any means. I just posted some of my observations and beliefs and hoped that others would post as well. It has been stated that Wagner and possibly Godet are the makers of the ehrenbecher. Is there any firm evidence of this? Also, the eagle stamp is the old city stamp for Heilbronn. Is there any association or evidence to suggest that the goblets were made there, or is this just coincidence?
  7. NONE. It is like asking how many Mona Lisa paintings I have examined. I am afraid that there are just not that many out there to have a great deal of experience for anyone. That is why I think it is interesting to discuss such a piece. I have had, and do have, several ehrenbechers. With a knowledge of the ehrenbecher, we can make some inferences about the Thor goblets and learn from an object "in hand". These Thor goblets apparently were made by some of the same silver shops that made the ehrenbechers. For instance, the Thor goblet in question here appears to bear the hallmarks of Brueckmann
  8. So it appears as though the discussion is completed on this goblet, for which there are only 8-9 other examples known to exist. I guess that is it. No comments or concerns, despite the fact that the silver hallmarks point to a different manufacturer than the other two images posted on the net? I personally like this goblet. However, I am a litte surprised that very few had any comments about the goblet itself. No one knows about these; with a knowledge of ehrenbechers, we should be able to evaluate and draw some conclusions on a very similar award.
  9. Better put that on "scour" cycle, as I still have a little sense of nausea and think it may just take some time.
  10. Ouch! That image of a 63 year old guy in a bikini is now going to be stuck in my mind. I think I will need a little therapy to get that removed from my brain. I am sure I will be okay in a few years.
  11. Chris- That is the point. NO ONE knows the true "value" of this item, as they just never come around. I was not suggesting, by any means, that my offer "defines a market" (that would be abject arrogance). What ever gave you that impression? That was certainly not my intent. I am not Mike (who is selling the goblet). I collect many items, but am particularly interested in the PLM. Therefore this is not some weird "plug" by the seller. The seller was KIND ENOUGH to allow us to post images of his goblet. I am just thrilled to have a chance to take a look at one. Aren't you? We can all learn
  12. I don't think so either. It is a good problem to have a solid offer on the table. If Mike decides to hold on to the goblet and look for a better price (no hard feelings), I think that provides a minimum price point to have in mind. The auction houses would be another option I had not considered for Mike, but there you have to pay a 20% commission, which puts a damper on things. I do think it is surprising that no one else has offered an opinion on valuation, however. Anyone else? Don, if you are readily able and willing to plunk down $17K for items you want (I know you are not interested
  13. You are welcome for the "sermon", Don. Do appreciate, however, that my sermon was short and did not require any kneeling, so it was pretty painless. $17K? Well, there you have it, Mike. Perhaps you should hold out for someone offering $17K then. My opinion is that it is worth $15K, therefore that is all that I would (and am) offering. Again, I think that everyone would agree that the pricing on these (since they essentially NEVER come up for sale) is tough. I determined my "guess" based on other "guesses", as the only market value we know about is for regular ehrenbechers. The value of the
  14. You are welcome, Mike. Of course, someone may offer more with the photos and all posted. It is kind of one of those items that people have on thier "Holy Grail" wish list. If not, I will be glad to buy it.
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