Vid

One is just later than the other it would seem. New manufacturer would have a new model number and mark, reject would be met with a slash through the maker mark. Heavier glaze application and a weary mold is what your looking at here. Post war molds were used but commercial pieces such as the candle holders is where you see the most material and process changes along with mold use. So what is generally inconsistant is changes in molds and availability of the pieces in order to take notice of such changes where rarer pieces do not allow such a view.

This is a beauty in white and one of the pieces I like better unpainted. Congrats! Kris

Not sure, would have been a nice piece.

The candle holder itself is correct without a doubt, I have not seen any ground up Allach porcelain fakes in the form of figures or 3 dimensions that I can think of. Where else did you go when you were in Germany? Best, Kris

Hi Basil, Its o.k to have that kind of opinion but with what we know of the firm its fairly easy to call that paint job non-Allach as its just terrible and not even close to what we see in regards to their paint work. So it is a story and the piece is what I am looking at. The idea that paint under glaze is o.k is not accurate and you cannot apply that to an authentication to be honest with you, it can be used on some pieces but not to counter what gos on today in the market. I was in Munich last year and visited the house as well as Dachau, interesting and it is posted as an unsafe structure so not sure how long that home will remain. Lot of history there and was nice to see that, easier to get there than into the SS industrial areas around Dachau as those are difficult and almost guarded. Best, Kris

Hello Basil, hope you are well and enjoying the holiday season!. I think this piece is at least the 2nd example I have seen and I have probably seen 3 of them like this but one may have been a double and there is a vase with a transfer as well. The porcelain itself is obviously correct but the paint is just awful and if this were in your hands it would actually be pretty easy to prove as after manufacture with some chemicals and a swab. I have not done it for obvious reasons but I have little doubt that I could take the paint right off that thing. They did make one for Waffen-SS but it was the white porcelain with the black/Brown coating and the subject or dedication line was actually molded with the candle holder and you have probably seen that piece as it has been published. Nice thing about that one as there is obviously no way to knock it for being post war enhanced or colored. There are certainly better attempts than this piece and while its not readily discussed there have been several pieces in the last few years that are just not right and all of them are coming out over here in the U.S and through one dealer. Be careful of this and while it has not been openly discussed there is a problem and I would say it will only take an internet thread and a piece to open that up that topic. Best, Kris

That piece is post war paint and nothing even close to Allach standards, have seen this done before and not the first example. No offense but would pass on that and run.

Robin, I am curious what model that is and looks like a 56, never saw one with paint either. If you get time and looks like a neat piece. Best, Kris

Robin, Maybe you can take better photos of this and I do not recall seeing it before. Best, Kris

That is a fantasy piece and awful, should be no question on this piece really. K

Big Doggy!!! Very nice!!

There is an issue of post war embellishments as far as colors go, its kind of tricky as there are rare exceptions. The color scheme pictured would certainly grab my attention if I saw it for close scrutiny. But? I dont think it really diminishes the value, I would not pay a premium for such a piece however. It is not ordinary for sure. Best, Kris

The candle holder is Allach and an obvious Diebitsch design. I have seen it but not too common as candle holders go. The Rosenthal vase is a nice piece as well and have seen several floating around. Nice setup!. Best, Kris

If anyone is interested. I am quite surprised at how much discussion both good and bad has gone on regarding this particular Vase. As I told the potential owner a few weeks ago, this Vase will bring a tremendous amount of scrutiny due to it's markings so if you like the Vase purchase it, but don't expect to sell it very easily because most people will stay clear of it. But that doesn't mean it is not authentic. Like most other pieces of Militaria (dagger, medal, etc.) that comes out of the woodwork and never before seen, there will always be suspicions of its authenticity. The top dealers and collectors in their particular field will all look at it and decide if the piece looks good or not. If the consensus is that the piece looks to be good then the majority may accept it. Obviously these experts will follow certain criteria's as to how to ascertain the authenticity of a particular item. They may not know why it was produced or for whom but they will know that it is a period piece by using these criteria's. I believe this is what we have in this particular Vase. I have handled more Allach than most so I am comfortable in forming an opinion on this Vase. This Vase is correctly marked with the green Allach in the raised octagon that is an undisputed makers mark of Allach. The impressed # 503 is also correct for this type vase as 84 total Vases were produced in 1938-39 with an additional 22 Vases produced in 1939 that were painted. The application of the Bohemia markings over stamping the Allach markings is in itself puzzling but was done correctly. The glaze is applied over both markings before the final firing of the Vase. I've seen pieces of porcelain with both the Allach and Bohemia marks present but they were usually side by side not overlapped but I believe these also to be authentic. Oswald Pohl, head of the economic enterprises of the SS, ordered to acquire the porcelain manufacturer Bohemia in mid 1939. The defeat of Czechoslovakia in June 1939 was the political and military precondition for such an economic activity by the SS. Particularly since Bohemia was once a factory that had been in Jewish possession. Now we have two entities, Allach known for it's porcelain and Bohemia which is known for it's cut glass artistry. Obviously there had to be a transition phase between the two manufacturers. This particular Vase has both of the makers markings as well as the manufacturing strengths of both companies, porcelain and cut decorations. Allach had never made this type of decoration before so it is plausible that this Vase has the combined artistry of both manufacturers during this early transitional period. Let us not forget that pieces of Allach porcelain were not allowed to leave the factory because of flaws of one kind or another. This dual overlapping makers mark could have been considered a flaw and left on the shelf only to be taken by the liberating forces who plundered the Allach factory. One will never know the reason for this peculiar mark but with all else considered, I believe this Vase to be authentic. This is only the humble opinion of one man. Dennis R. Porell

Paul, When the new pictures were sent out yesterday Dennis had recieved them and we did talk. He was going to comment yesterday or today but it has not come to fruition. I believe he may feel boxed in as the furor is being handled by myself and Mark Paul, both clients of his and not an enviable position. But I know his opinion and feel it is correct if that helps any. If I was not in it deep before I am certainly in deep now Best, Kris

Hi Paul, No history on the piece other than the markings and the mold used, but its not something outside the period. The Bohemia mark would indicate prewar manufacture maybe 1938 or 1939 as a solid guess and the mold used. There have been unknown pieces found and some model #s have not even been found, the last piece was a Muskateer figure and numbered 171. Since the production figures stop at 100 in 1939 that leaves at least 71 models and many have not been observed. Time period considering the catalog is na dual year print could essentially be open to sometime in 1939-1944 I suppose. This piece has caused quite a skirmish on another forum and I guess I wont be dining at Mark Paul's house for Thanksgiving, but the piece is very neat and it was a great find for collectors. John, Thank you for your kind words and enjoy the vase, if you ever decide to sell it let me know but I realize that is not your interest. Kind Regards, Kris Lindblom

I lost my old login when I got a new computer, so please forgive me for a second screen name. These pictures were taken to another forum and discussed. It is a very interesting piece and I will attach my post on the other forum for you guys to read. I am just a collector so anyone who wants to disagree is welcomed to do so. Best, Kris Lindblom There is no precedent for overstamping Allach marks or vice versa for transitional pieces at all. There has never been a piece that I have seen that looks like this at all. So if there was a precedent and it existed? this would be what I would expect to see. Luckily the manufacturer used an Allach mold, there is no doubt about it. The measurement is accurate as well. The #503 Vase was not unpopular, but the market is not flooded with them and even if a mold were in private hands, it would be much easier to just mold porcelain with the octagon, but the model # is impressed and not part of the mold. On top of that, whoever made this took an approach of manufacture that was not only skilled but I would say highly skilled. I spoke with Dennis Porell this morning, and he reminded me of a conversation we had last week regarding this mark and that I had quickly discounted it as doubtful but I had not seen the mark and we talk about these things all the time, so I still don't remember the conversation nor did I ask him for pictures. I don't want to misquote him but what he essentially said was that he could not discount the piece as not being original as both markings look to be legitimate, but he is also at a loss as to why there would be a double mark. That Allach mark screams "I was there" I took 20 different original marks and broke them down piece by piece and placed them side by side and that mark is 100% correct and shows every distinctive feature that one would expect to see on an Allach piece. You take a look at the fakes listed on the beginning of this topic and look how clean and neat the Allach mark is on these fakes that are coming out, they are perfect and why not, they are not done the same way and use current technology in their application. But none of these fakes use any period molds or for that matter any piece of porcelain that is on par with the quality of Allach that was manufactured in the period. This piece was manufactured right out of an Allach mold and go's way out of its way to look like anything but Allach, to view it on the fly or without looking at the marking would leave any Allach collector walking by it without a second glance as the style is unlike any Allach piece that I have ever seen. But!! It is not unlike Bohemia in some respects, Bohemia manufactured dinnerware for personalities in some cases as well as pieces for hotel's and the Red Cross. But when you look at their dinnerware they use colors other than the normal white run of the mill dishes that can be found. I cant remember ever seeing a piece by Bohemia such as this either, but that does not make it so, the marking falls right on the line of 1938-1940 from past experience and the use of the color and pattern reminds me of a set of dinnerware that popped up on Hermann Historica some time ago by Bohemia and attributed to Martin Bormann. If any Allach collector has any doubt about this piece, all he has to do is grab his pieces and a magnifying glass and look very closely at the marks and their distinctive flaws and then look at this piece and compare it. That is in my opinion a 100% original Allach mark placed over a 100% Bohemia mark for the time period that directly coincides with technical and artistic communication between the parties involved in both Allach and Bohemia. Dennis Porell cannot discount the piece, I cannot discount the piece and anyone who believes they can is going to have to have a whole lot of explaining to do, because I am of the opinion it is the real deal. Why is it double marked? I have no Idea but can only speculate, it could have been submitted to Allach for possible production along with other pieces and marked with the Allach as form of intellectual property and put on a shelf for future use or discarded or even given to someone as a gift. I honestly don't know as I was not there. I like it, but it will never be a piece of high value, and unless a bunch of pieces show up just like it which I doubt highly, it appears to be an original enigma. Best, Kris