joelhall

Thanks for the clarification, Joel

Looks good to me, but I'd need clearer photos to tell for sure.

The miniature on the ribbon denotes the EK1. Ribbon only for EK2.

i certainly believe that theyre important historically, theyre witness not just to the war, but the equally eventful european aftermath. to me theyre a much nicer thing to spend money on than an early 57 ek, same as i love my black wound badge with the black flaked off, my ek with scratches and dents in it, and my rusty fire police helmet with the chin strap broken off. you cant beat an artifact thats seen the history you collect. of course i dont know much about daggers yet, but denazified crosses arent especially rare. ill bet a fair few vets preferred these to the 57 versions, as they were better quality even once altered, not to mention the few who may have wanted to save a few bob ;)

i think what youre asking is if these were make after world war two as 57 versions? no, at least not quite made per se. the 57 versions featured an oakleaf spray in the centre. these types are so-called 'denazified' medals were in fact originals which were defaced by the recipients after world war two, so as to fall in line with the denazification laws imposed on germany, which called for removing all vestiges of the national socialist party in 1957. the awards were still recognised after world war two by the west german armed forces, but could only be worn if the swastika was removed. many veterens did this before the 57 type awards were manufactured, and often, as with this one, repainted the centre where the swastika had been removed.

hi there folks. just wondering if i could get an opinion of the originality of this cap edelweiss? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=300396840121 joel

precisely:) joel

even so, i fail to see how much that is going to affect soldiers hurrying to pick up id tags, to think of removing or reading an ek1 to read the back on the off chance that it might say something. theres no p.t.o. on the front after all. and as for arms being produced and helmets refurbished, these were things vital to the defence, and survival of the people in the city. this is different than items produced for propaganda in britain. yes there was the blitz, but were comparing a whole country to one city (blockaded at that!), the whole of britain takes up a far larger space and you didnt have the same effect as on a city which was cut off, meaning their (far less) resources were far too important to spend time, materials and man-hours on a very odd attempt at breaking german morale. its hard to see how they had the means duing that time, let alone people willing to carry out the work in such a stressful time, where primitive survival needs were far more important in everyones minds. the other point is without time and means to create machine parts to produce these crosses, when there were more important needs to be conidered first, i havent seen any examples of... well, the very tacky examples you would expect at best! however i should point out this attatchment on the wr thread, by dimas: http://warrelics.eu/forum/german-third-rei...-crosses-2.html hopefully there could be something coming to light. until then im going to stand in my belief these are post war communist made, as even the best attempts to explain this being made in '41 seem somewhat shaky at best.

sorry:) joel

i dont think it did THAT bad a job;)

varients, imperial, third reich, prussian, oddities, rarities, miniatures, dks, kvks - i want them all . unfortunately, im very poor person (VERY poor, ive been off work due to illnes for 17 months and on an nhs waiting list for that long too:(), my collection is very small - about 20 or 25 pieces but all ones i love. i dont have any 1813s or an 1870 ek1 yet though - and no prinzens:( definitely something im on the look out for!(so you all know who to call if you have any spare prinzen ek2;)hint hint hint) and i love having those little extra things to add a bit of 'colour' to the display, patriotic world war one plates and so on. but ill only get a piece which i wont want to sell. im a collector for the collections sake rather than for investment, so everything has to 'bring' something to the collection. hey... a kitty cat... yeah, er... anyway... its hard to keep adding pieces (especially at current prices) so all the more reason not to jump at impulse buys. imperial are always more fun than third reich of course - especially 1914, some of the varients are gorgeous, especially cases and citations. so far i only have a few pieces, nothing very special, a cased ek1 1914, 1870 ek2, oaks, three n/c ek2s, and some miniatures and 'extras' with eks designs. still... theres a lot of fun in the chase aint there;)

да плохо пробуйте это! ...как было это?

now you mention it i recall seeing a photograph of the grand cross on a white ribbon. im frantically searching to find it ill let you know when i do:) joel

forgive me i dont think i explained it very well, but that was what i was trying to point out. what, though, would be offered to a ciilian at the front in 1914? would this be a black/white bordered ribbon? joel:)

er... think that language barrier might be breaking down again that was kind of my point:)

i always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the iron cross was a symbol of the act not the persons status in general, but at the moment the act was fulfilled. for example a black ribbon would be awarded to anyone for a deed which was combatant in nature, as the white ribbon would be awarded for any deed which was non-combatant, as well as where the act took place, regardless of the position held by the awardee. as an example a front line chaplain (a non-combatant personnel) would be awarded the black ribbon as all his acts would be carried out in the actual combat zone, same as with medics, persons in occupied territories. however any act that happened in an area not specified as the battle field or front, such as medical staff tending the wounded brought back, officers making decisive gestures far removed from the battle field, etc would not qualify fo the black ribbon but for the white. whether it was awarded for merit or bravery is besides the point, as any action which does not happen in any direct fire with the enemy, or whilst at risk of enemy activity is not a combatant action.

Major von Borcke, later Lt. Col. 1st Btn, 2nd Inf Reg?

haha wow what did i miss? yeah im waiting too, it would be good if there is some evidence to back up the story. my idea is the the only logical conclusion i can come up with IF this are in fact genuine. it just sems that these were intended more as a post war insult to a battle than as a very odd (to say the least) attempt at demoralising the germans.

posted on warrelics.eu by dimas in response to my post: Hi Joel, Firstly I want to tell you that this example is real from the war time. Because the pictures made from one example from russian archive. I have somewhere the picture of original file to that cross from archive. I will look to that in nearest future in my pictures archive. this would be very interesting if something came to light to show that these were produced at the time and place they are reported to have been. however despite a further post in reply to my statement about using merely the item and logic: The life in blockaded Leningrad was also out of normal human logic. ... i still find it hard that within a blockaded front line city ALL logic would fly out the reason, and such a ridiculous plan would be used. perhaps im wrong in assuming that these were east german, but i still stand by my opinion at the moment that these were post war, and for the reason stated. it all seems more than a fanciful idea that this would ever have any effect. also what would be the point of burying them? it would appear to be a seriously badly thought out plan of propaganda!!

im no expert really, but im not keen on this cross at all. for me the details on both sides lack something, and ive never seen an imperial cross of this size (seems to measure around 48-50mm but my eyesights not exactly perfect). plus parts of the description seem to yell 'look at me, look at me this is 100% genuine'. i had a look at his other auctions but the photos are poor to say the least so i cant really comment. hopefully some of the big boys will have a better input than me. sorry dude. joel

just come across this thread, and for what its worth im hoping to go into business crafting archival quality cases boxes and cabinets (to hopefully fund medical school). ill agree with everything which peter has written with one or two extra points. firstly with laminated or veneered furniture, as long as the veneers are on the outside only, this will usually be fine (depending on age). gas of course enters the air through brownian movement/diffusion, rather than being a liquid which seeps around every crack back into the case. even more so with old/antique furniture, which has had time to shrink and grow, and adapted to air moisture levels (buying cases or cabinets locally would be better than from abroad/another part of the country), thee with be less aqueous gases released. all woods will give off gases, but after time these will be at such a low rate that it will really just be a pedant who will mention it. if you really want to do something to help dissipate the gases, just open it up now and then to breath (although not being air tight the gases will escape slowly anyway). generally, the older the piece is the better. especially with antique furniture where animal glues will have had an excellent chance to dry out. youll also notice frame and panel construction (as opposed to routered pieces made for the mass market) which means less adhesive in the first place (it gives the wood room for shrinkage). no matter how well a wood is air or kiln dried it will still adapt over many years to air moisture levels. the bottom line here is if a cabinet has been used for 100 years or so and youre grandmother could display her finest silver and china in it, your militaira will be safe as houses too. just to point out its wrong to think of wood as 'dead' once it has been cut down. it still moves and breathes many years after having been used in construction (think about stairs creaking at night), and of course reacts to temperature. antique coin display cabinets are ideal for medals (rather than new ones). just stay away from iffy type woods, such as oak or teak (definite no-no), chestnut etc. alot of australian hardwoods id avoid too, like jarrah or sheoak, or any eucalyptus. not sure about rosewood though as i doubt id be able to afford to buy a whole case made of this!!! metal frames are usually better as they can be bought cheaper generally, new, and of course arent as prone to damage - scratches and dents, except that with change of temperature (for those who watch their heating bills) and season they attract moisture, which isnt taken up of course as it is with woods so will sit around on the metal. the downside of wood of course is that it will lose this moisture later (but only if it has had ample time to draw it in - i.e. lengthly exposure), though this wll be far far lower than with newer wood and it wont take as long to adapt to the air moisture level. the plus side however is a nice antique english walnut case looks the wal-nuts(!) and will give a very nice prominence to your display! these are of course military ANTIQUES for the most part, and i personally dont like a silvery metal and modern look around them - it drags something away from it. be cautious of modern furnitue, especially cheaper stuff - anything using soft woods and man-made boards (lots of adhesives in those). the glue is often not a sign of a total master, but mass produced quickly, and of course will gas out, no matter how quick drying it may be ('though some epoxies are good). and of course anything made with chip board, fibre boards or ply will no doubt be laminated, often with a self adhesive laminate. with the interior and lining of course this is spot on. any acid free, and hopefully dye free material to line the ENTIRE interior would be a bonus. in fact any non-reactive material (or very slowly reactive material as everything eventually degrades) will be perfect for a lining. plus presenting a collection on bare, unfinished wood just doesnt look too nice! of course you could just seal them in an air tight container made of some inert metal, lined with layers and layers of acid free tissue and filled with nitrogen that should do the trick

... because noones bored of reading that heading again anyway i was wondering - "mini coin easels", "plexi-coin stands", "coin pedestals", "little plastic things that are cool for standing my crosses on" call them what you will. weve all seen them and theyre cheap and do a good job. now ive been thinking - as ill be making my own display cabinets, and was thinking about making some small easels out of wood, covering the top where theres contact with an archival grade material, and so on (to look swanky of course) - what are the archival qualities of the plastic ones, and where can i buy these in britain? ive looked around but they only seem to be available in the states (postage from there would probably defeat the object of them being cheap), so if it is possible to find them here, where are they all hiding? thanks for your time guys joel

at the moment its because i dont have the knowledge to tell between good and bad ones. im working on it though

no problem martin

ah thanks mike. let this one pass then. cheers for the reply:) joel