peter monahan

Sorry you haven't got a response, Raven.  I'm a Canuck, so no help here. 

I assume you know about the National Archives.  It now, I see, has a 'Live Chat' section. Perhaps someone there can give you a link to others who can comment on whether or not the Memroy Project is a good investment.  Or even tell you themselves what it's worth.  https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-of-the-first-world-war/

Good luck!

Peter

Interesting.  I looked up this medal and there were a number of US 'military' web sites - unofficial, run by vets and so on - which mention that the medal was created in 2011 but has not yet been supplied by the Iraqi gov't to the US gov't for issue.  Wikipedia says this, which is an interesting twist on the issue:

"To this day, the award has still not been approved for wear for United States Iraq War Veterans. In 2013, the Department of Defense made a statement that it is still waiting for the initial group of medals to be received from the Government of Iraq.^[3] A single award was presented to Vice President Joe Biden on Dec 1st, 2011" [emphasis added by me]

So, the gent selling them is either performing a useful service for Gulf War veterans or profiting from the failure of the Iraqi government to follow up on it's plans.  Or both.  I say this only because there is now a minor industry of private companies creating and selling medals and awards which various governments chose not to issue or never got around to.  I'm thinking of the D-Day Medal in particular.  No slight at all on the brave men and women who would have earned it if the Commonwealth had created one, but it seems to me that creating awards devalues the official ones. 

This is a different case, obviously, as this was created by an official government and an ally of those countries whose service personnel qualify but a bit odd nonetheless.

Peter

I don't want to stick my neck out here - neither artillery nor the Victorian periods are things I know much about - but I do know in the Napoleonic era, an earlier period, folks like Commissariat inspectors and some of the other 'technical' departments [my term, noty theirs] wore dark blue tunics. 

I think to suggest that the were what today would be HQ/staff appointments and ranks, not strictly combat arms but I may be wrong.  As I recall, the Commissariat chap in 'Zulu' wears a blue tunic in the period.  Not suggesting for a minute that Gunners are/were non-combatant, but the old British Army and it's affiliates had some very odd customs, IMHO.  On a related note, can you tell from the photos whether the two other Inspectors' tunics are in fact red?  Or could they be blue as well? 

I hope somebody more knowledgeable than I can chime in here.  I hang out in museums as a volunteer and know how frustrating it is to have incomplete [or wrong!] info. on artifacts.  Good luck!

Peter

I suspect it is a watch fob too.  You may be able to further identify it by looking for a university or public school which uses the rampant lion crest.

That might be the explanation too.  In which case the software designer needs a smack.  Niot everybody has short names!

What the 'we can't fix it' answer says to me is that a) they just don't care, which seems a bit unlikely IMO or b) they had a grant or person who transcribed the information and that person/money is now gone.  You can be sure that you are NOT the only person who has submitted information which then got copied incorrectly, but...  

An honest answer to that effect might be marginally better than what you seem to have gotten.

Yes, I've heard of that being a not uncommon fate for tankies of various armies.

21 hours ago, Gunner 1 said:

I have the medals to an officer who fell asleep on a long march, fell off his horse and was run over by a supply wagon, killing him instantly.

I work with high school students and do presentations on the CAMC in the Great War.  I begin by asking them 'What did soldiers die of?' and discuss bayonet vs rifle round vs shell fire.  And disease.  When I hand out the 20 'cause of death' cards, one says 'Other' and I tell them that the soldier fell off a wagon and was run over by the next wagon.  They all get that this is "the 1917 version of crossing the road while texting".  The only 'good death' is one that happens to somebody else!

Peter

Nice work, Morar!  You should definitely keep it up:  a nice, low cost way to stay involved in history.

I would suggest contacting the Naval Museum at Greenwich.  Given the exalted rank of the Captain, there is some chance at least that a copy of the photo with these men identified does exist.  Good luck with the hunt!

On 23/12/2019 at 14:42, Duncan said:

I've had some very odd Memorial plaques over the years - kicked in the head by his horse whilst training in England; fell from a 4th floor window in Edinburgh; and accidentally shot at a rest camp in France must be the most unusual. 

Yes, we tend to forget the percentage of deaths which would have come under 'Other'.  The oddest I've heard of were what the Chindits, in the next 'Great' war referred to irreverently as 'Killed by Flying Fruit': men who, during an aerial  resupply drop in the jungles of Burma, were struck by a case of tinned pineapple or a duffle bag full of boots.  Drooped from 200-300 feet without parachutes! 

One of our Canadian Prime Ministers, Lester 'Mike' Pearson almost earned such a plaque.  While on leave from the Royal Flying Corps he was crossing the street in a blackout and was run down by a London bus and seriously, though nit fatally injured.

Captain

Welcome to the GMIC and thank you for posting the ribbon chart.  I notice that at least one post on page 1 of this forum refers to someone - President Mugabe perhaps - wearing his medals in the wrong order, so my guess would be that the chart shows the correct order of precedence and that photos of the medals being worn which show a different order are due to errors by the wearers.  Not an uncommon occurrence in many countries.

I also notice a reference in a chat between 'RhodesianMilitary' and 'Shauma', also pon page 1, to the 'Zimbabwe Medal Society'.  It was apparently founded by a Keith Holshausen and the late Wing Commander Peter Cooke, founding chairman of the Zimbabwe Medal Society.  Keith is also a member of the OMSA but I suspect that if you contacted either Rhodesian Military or Shauma - click on their names on page 1- they would be happy to tell you how to join that group and perhAPS answer other questions you may have.

Peter

Nice find indeed!

Interesting!  In 1967 Canada celebrated its centennial as a country and, among other events, held a series of military 'pageants', for which the government ordered quite a number of 'historical uniforms'.  They looked fine on parade but wouldn't fool a tailor or a soldier familiar with the original issue.

 I also have a friend who makes museum quality copies of 1812 era uniforms, some for Parks Canada and their historical sites, some for European museums and some for private collectors.  More than one of these has shown up for sale, tagged as 'original' although, again, most are not 100% accurate on the inside.

Than you, Bayern, for jogging my old memory.  I did say 'non-spotted' cat but forgot to mention the spotted South American cat, the jaguar!

16 hours ago, WRANGEL said:

 I think this silver badge is quite old (1930-50 ?).There is also the possibility that the badge do not refere to  Africa but perhaps Asia as there are panthers in Asia as well.

Cheers

Bill

Bill

My North American culture interfering here!  I read 'panther' and immediately thought of the non-spotted North and South American cat - also known as 'painter', mountain lion and jaguar.  This animal clearly has spots, so perhaps a search using the term 'leopard' might turn out more clues.  Just a thought.

I can't give you specifics, but I do know from reading [mostly military fiction] that,  especially at the lower levels, promotion was often for 'time in grade'.  As W.E.B. Griffin put it in a book on WWII Marines, if you could 'hear thunder and see lightning' [and had two years in] the jump from 2nd Lt to 1st Lt was just about automatic. 

I think that would have been especially true in peace time - as a way of retaining officers who might otherwise resign.  The Canadian Armed Forces are very 'NCO heavy' for that reason: to hold onto skilled soldiers such as mechanics, riggers are anybody whose job has a civilian equivalent, you have to promote them regularly.

20 hours ago, Gunner 1 said:

There is also British Battles and Medals, 7th Edition, which is indispensable for collectors of British campaign medals and British Gallantry Awards by Abbott and Tamplin which is excellent for British decorations.

I was going to recommend both Gordon and Abbott and Tamplin but my expertise on books is 20 years out of date.  Both still hold pride of place on my bookshelf but I wasn't certain whether newer, better books were out there.  I still treasure both a 6th edition and a 7th of Gordon, for the detailed information on which units earned which bars.  In fact a friend was responsible, 30 plus years ago now, for adding to and correcting some of the units of the Indian Army mentioned in the campaign medals for that part of the Empire. 

That makes more sense!  Sorry, I'm more used to Canadian medal [pairs] which were not issued until after 1918, so the idea that he might have been issued his Star before he demobbed is a bit odd to me.

Chaco

Interesting question!  Many collectors and ALL military quartermasters have an iron clad rule: Never through ANYTHING away!  Even if you don't know what it is.  The bandolier have gone through a half dozen official and semi-official hands - Singapore militia?  Hong Kong defence force? - before being finally marked off the books.  Or, it may have gone straight from SA to Japan in the possession of a veteran of that war.  Either would make a great tale but, sadly, almost impossible to know.   

I'm afraid I can't help with info.  Perhaps some UK member will have access to what you need.

I couldn't help commenting on the, I assume self-awarded, 'C P L' rank on the Star.  I see that his card indicates that we WAS a Corporal at some point but had lost the rate, presumably, before the medal was awarded.

The only connection I can find, in an admittedly brief search, is that the current [I think] Somali Ministry of Defence has a coat of arms supported by two spotted cats - heraldic leopards.  Possibly a complete coincidence.

If you hold it up to your ear can you hear the ocean?

[I was thinking of the other kind of shell!  ]

It looks as if the manufacturer is "North' something - a commercial label by the look of it, which is odd to my mind.  Any way to find out if this company DID make gear for the Scouts?  Here's the only image I found searching 'Selous Scouts gear made by 'North''.  Similar, I think, but not the same. But the source is a Pintrest page, so no useful source for the shot. 

On 14/11/2019 at 23:49, Gunner 1 said:

Actually officers serial numbers after 1920 ('P' numbers) went from single digit to six digits. 'P1' was the serial number of EC Lloyd.

Thank you, Gunner!  I looked that up but clearly not in the correct place.   My [very limited] expertise is with Canadian Great War records, when officers did not have numbers at all, and the 19th century British system [ditto].  I suspected British officers must have gotten the serials between the wars but didn't double check my source.  My bad.

Peter