peter monahan

Great find indeed. A "real" Rupert, as opposed to a wet behind the ears 2nd Lt! (I gather "Rupert" is one of the more repeatable names British squaddies use for officers of a certain type).

Don't I recall these little guys making it into THE D-Day movie, The Longest Day? I'm pretty sure I recall a scene where a German officer watches "parartroops" landing in a field near his headquarters until one of his men runs up with one in tow. Of course, Hollywood style, it was a real dool, face, uniform etc. but still a memorable moment in a great film. Never stopped to wonder though whether, if it was true, what the "dummies" really looked like. (No cheap shots here!)

Peter

Although I never managed to own one, I always liked the Snider-Enfield! (I got a Martini Henry instead, the first "real" breechloader, as opposed to conversion.)

One of Rudyard Kipling's "Soldiers Three" said that loading his Snider was "as easy as feeding a monkey nuts", and as a long time muzzleloader owner (I have and fire a Brown Bess), the phrase sticks in my head!

The Snider's eventually went almost everywhere on the globe, I believe, along with thousands of Brown Besses: poorer armies like the Sultan's, as trade guns to Africa and anywhere that black powder was available. Sniders will chamber a 12 gauge shotgun shell, or so I've been told on good authority, so apparently were popular with Canadian natives as cheap cheap hunting guns.

Hang onto that Pattern '42, Theodor, it's a very nice piece!

A mild irony, of course, was that he rarely wore uniform on campaign, so did not wear any of his medals at all, unlike the Emporer!

If my really shaky math is right, 700 000 in 28 000km sq. works out to about 25 per square km! Can that be right? And what % of the GNP of Albania would that have represented for the construction years?

On a similar note, I listened to a radio interview several months ago with the son of Hoxha's Minister of Defence (I think that was it anyway.) His job used to be making guns and ammo for the regime. Now he's in charge of destroying the stuff! ("Set a thief... etc.)

The job is being subsidized by NATO and the group doping it go through some incredible figur like 20 tonnes a day. They seperate the bullets from the cartridges and shovel the cartridges into a huge furnace, wher they a very satisfactory "Crump" when they cook off. I believe the gent in charge said they have work for the next several decades at the current rate of destruction!

What price paranoia now? The mind boggles.

There should be a small hook under the barrel to secure the bayonet. Any sign that there was once one there?

BTW, agree with Leigh about the markings: Light Coy of the 34th

Peter

Thank you very much, Leigh!! A few letters, but giving lots of history to the gun!

Though still do not know what exactly it is - a late model "Brown Bess", an early Enfield or what... The WW2 guns are much easier to identify

Theodor

What you have there is an Pattern 1842 Musket, the last issue produced by the British Army before switching to the Snider-Enfield (a conversion of the old Brown Besses to breechloaders).

The 1842 was widely used throughout the Empire and imported by both sides in the US Civil War. It was, as I say, the intermediate step between flintlock muzzle-loader and breech-loading percussion. The "Tower" marking means the lock was made at the Tower of London armouries or another government armoury.

(Often, stocks and barrels were married to locks by civilians contractors, many of whom clustered arond the Tower. Hence the expression "lock, stock and barrel", meaning "the whole thing")

Ther is one of these on sale on a US site for $600.00US, semmingly in about the same condition as yours.

Hello

I have also used one these, albeit a few years back now. I found the Lee Enfield to be a robust and accurate rifle. I agree, there is some weight in them. Presumably that's why they when they issued to the troops they always came with a sling. Now imagine using the T version with the telescopic sight mounted, adding an extra 2 - 3 lbs to the weight.

After WWII here in Canada, tens of thousands of Lee-Enfields were "sporterized" by havinf most of the forestock removed and a simple blade foresight added, thus dropping the weight by a couple pounds to appeal more to hunters and sports shooters. I expect it worked and there must still be thousands out there in attics, garages and hunting camps.

I agree with Chris! L-E's are cool. Always been my favourite and I owned a couple for years. Also incredibly rugged and widespread. Several years ago now our local paper posted a shot of an Iraqi woman truning in a rifle for food in Baghdad. The caption identified it as some offmake that was "a favourite of Saddam Hussein's" but it was a No.4, mk. 1. Probaly got to Iraq with the Brityish army, or sold by a Bedouin. Great pieces!

Peter

At the risk of wandering off topic slightly here, I believe that the CIA has a whole series of honours and awards. While some of them are certainly of the "QM and train" type, presumably at least a few are given for work which is classifed "secret" or, in afew cases "didn't happen". I'd always assumed that the recipient got to say "Gee, thanks!" and then pack it a way in a trunk to gloat over in retirement and leave behind to mystify the kids.

I'd guess that. while most serving soldiers like to wear their awards, a "secret" MC to the SAS would be treasured (or not) by the recipient as proof that his peers and superiors in SAS knew what he'd done, and that the sort of person to whom such an award is given wouldn't feel compelled to wear in his home unit or talk about it in pubs.

What worries me is the naughty people who will buy from him and try to sell as original

That's why responsible manufacturers make sure there is some significant difference between the original, other than the obvious one of stamping "Copy" on them. I knew the Canadian distributor for a large British regalia firm and when, many years ago, he was asked to reproduce the 19th century helmet plates of our Royal Military College, he deliberately incorporated a subtle but unmistakeable flaw into the new dies. No, I can't tell you what it was, 'cause I don't know! he was also one of the better known and more reputable dealers in militaria over here and was happy to "vet" any piece for anyone.

This thread interests me because I think it unlikely I'll ever have the time and money again to collect original British campaign medals but I would love to pick up some good copies of the early Indian stuff! So, good copies are ok by me, with the caveat above. And if collectors can't be bothered to find out what distinguishes good from copy (sold as real) - which this forum is all about, I think of "Caveat emptor" and "Fools and their money... "

My tuppence worth

Peter

May they rest in peace,

They have done their bit of work towards peace on earth!!!

My thoughts are with their comrades and family.

AMEN

Yes, looks pre-WWI. Nepali-made, of course. Weren't they all, pre-1947? I know some of the post-1947 ones are made in India, but not all. Cant' say how those unfortunates that remained in British service get theirs.

Very similar to many that I saw in the National Museum (in Kathmandu). Somewhere, I may have some pictures.

Ed

The WWII kukri I owned for years had a broad arrow stamp, which obviously doesn't speak to it's place of manufacture but I had always assumed it was made in India. There were obviously thousands made for that conflict and issued, I think, to others besides Gurkhas as bush knives, so I wonder if they mayn't have been turned out in India. Thoughts on that?

Peter

If they're Mick Jagger, Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts and Keith Richards then I'm King Edward VII!!

Doc

Welcome to the Club, Your Majesty!

For the Second Afghan to British units it is not unusual; I've had a number named in that style.

I stand corrected! The old mind isn't what it used to be. And the new one's not much better.

Peter

A lovely piece! For my money, one of the more interesting reverses in the British list. The early IGS reverses are also quite nice.

Some of the 51st Foot qualified for the Ali Musjid bar and about 450 for a no bar medal like this one. Odd naming, though. Is it all in the same hand or could some of it have been added later? Rank, name & unit is what's common for this period and a reference to "Bde' ('brigade', presumably) is strange.

Peter

I'd agree with Tom: probably a private, not military issue. The pommel style is reminiscent of paintings I've seen from the nineteenth century and the size suggests Nepali manufacture, so quite possibly of some age and likely hand made, as you suggest.

I used to be quite interested, several decades ago, and I don't recall ever seeing one from pre-WWI except in a museum, but the overall style looks at least pre-1914. A really nice find indeed!

Peter

So I supose I might just get away with selling "Original Bottled Mini Vampires from Transylvania." at 50 bucks a pop, Postage & packing extra

Kevin up to his A@?% in Garlic

Too bad it's been re-bollted, because the original bottle (glass, of course) would have been marked "47 BC", so we'd know it was real.

How posh!! Must be edumacated cousins in ameriky. . . . back on the Auld Sod, Erin's Green Isle that is, we would be touching the forelock as the Squire rode by . . .no money for hats only tatties

Kevin in Deva

Not the most serious threat ever to Canadian (British) sovereignty. Only one skirmish big enough to call a battle (Ridgeway), a bunch of "raids" and a lot of hanging about just south the border making us Canucks nervous. In one case the battle was called off when an American sheriff arrived and arrested the Fenian general as they were about to cross into Canada. On the other hand, many were Union Army veterans and made the Cdns nervous enough to be one of the reasons why we Confederated in 1867 and formed our own country (sort of ). A fascinating period and some wonderful characters on both sides.

No, the Fenians were'nt terrorists in our sense - no bombs in pubs - just overanxious Irish patriots with a weak grasp of global politics and strategies. "Get out of Ireland or we'll keep Canada." To which the British response would likely have been "Ok. How much to take Newfoundland off out hands too?"

Sadly, the British were as lax with the Fenian Medals as they were with the NorthWest rebellion one: they were only authorized decades later, so most veterans didn't get them at all and at least one only got it in time to decorate his casket lid.

I believe that is a cut down British pattern 1821 cavalry sabre-sans guard. Many were exported to the USA before and during the Civil War.

That makes a lot of sense, because otherwise that is a VERY strange handguard - only half there - but as a cutdown basket or stirrup hilt it looks "right", if I'm making sense.

Peter

"This letter is by a French ship Capt. on Sainte-Dominigue(Haiti) of his present situation dated November 26, 1777.

Capt. Francais the 26 November 1777"

Is this the guy who killed Captain Jack Sparrow in part 3?

Shooting of Part Three finished in late November. My friend the historical adviser says that most of the flick revolves around Jack's remark in Part 1 "Clearly, you've never been in Singapore". But the poor guy didn't even get there. All shot on Sound Stage 7 in LaLa Land. Think 1,000s of gallons of water with plants in them sitting in a hot warehouse for a month! Bleeh!

Peter

Barry

Here's a reply from the RoyalNavy1812 list:

Given the parameters you've laid out, a vessel would have to average a speed

of 4 knots per hour, running 24/7 to make the voyage in 17 days. While

acheiving an average voyage speed of four knots would be considered pretty

good...it is not really very fast, so yes I would say making the voyage

would be possible and would be a voyage many New England sailing masters

would have been very familiar with, though I think running against the Gulf

Stream might slow you down a bit :7) I'd say possible, I might even be

persueded it "likely" given the importance of the message. I'll have to

check some sources at home, but I think Ben Franklin, in Paris at the time,

"knew" of Saratoga in fairly rapid fashion as well.

Fair Winds,

Jim Pierce

"They are lords of the sea, and neither in this dominion nor in world trade

have they any rivals left to fear" Field Marshall Gneisenau 1815 speaking on

Great Britain

Yes, as I thought I recalled, this arrow-maple leaf badge was the "Force Mobile Command" badge, worn on both sleeves in cloth or, later, in metal on the right breast and worn from the 1960's to the 1980'2.

The 25 Brigade badge for Korea is described this way at the site I mentioned: The 25th Brigade wore a red shield, with yellow maple leaf surrounded by a white laurel wreath (similar to that found in the United Nations flag). Issued in embroidery on a melton background, private purchase versions were commonly found as well, purchased in Japan and made of higher quality materials such as metal wire instead of thread. These uniforms were usually worn on battledress by troops coming home to Canada from Asia

So, unfortunately, this looks like a made up piece: reg't insignia missing and non-period formation patch added to the tunic, which may be Korean era (I know nothing about tunics).

Peter

Chris

That badge is post-unification of the Canadian forces, which happened in the late-60's or early '70's. My mind is lamentably slow today so I can't recall details but it was for the equivalent of an "active response force" - worn by reg. force infantry and others tasked to suport NATO. So, unless it was borrowed from any earlier idebtical badge, it shouldn't even be worn on that uniform, only on the unified force greens. Sorry!

I'll check around for more details but suggest you consult the guys at www.canadiansoldiers.com. they're experts in this field, I'm not.

Peter

I'm astonished that there were still muzzle-loading guns that late!

My naval history is really shaky but I seem to recall that the British Navy was using (big) muzzle-loaders on capital ships until very late and that it was the explosion of a turret on a battlewagon during firing that finally persuaded the Admiralty to go to breechloaders.

As I recall (something read 20 years ago) the guns in question depressed their muzzles below deck level and were hydralically loaded and rammed - presumably easier mechanically to make and load this way than an equivalent weight shell for a breechloader. There was an accident and many killed and the subsequent inquiry suugested (duh!) going to the "new" technology. Presumably though, cranes and a gravity assist in loading would work best for muzzle-loading truly massive guns.

Can anybody else recall reading any of this or is my medication wearing off again?

Peter

I'm astonished that there were still muzzle-loading guns that late!

My naval history is really shaky but I seem to recall that the British Navy was using (big) muzzle-loaders on capital ships until very late and that it was the explosion of a turret on a battlewagon during firing that finally persuaded the Admiralty to go to breechloaders.

As I recall (something read 20 years ago) the guns in question depressed their muzzles below deck level and were hydralically loaded and rammed - presumably easier mechanically to make and load this way than an equivalent weight shell for a breechloader. There was an accident and many killed and the subsequent inquiry suugested (duh!) going to the "new" technology. Presumably though, cranes and a gravity assist in loading would work best for muzzle-loading truly massive guns.

Can anybody else recall reading any of this or is my medication wearing off again?

Peter

Antonio

Any info on what they're for or who gets them?

Peter