peter monahan

I can't remember who issued these silk cigarette cards, I think that they were issued during WWI.

How accurate are these, with those strange looking regimental numerals?

This one represents the drum banner of the 4th Hussars, with Queen Victorias cypher & crown.

Leigh

At a guess, the numbers have been "anglicized" from Roman numerals, so that younger collectors could be sure to "get a set" - that being, of course the reason the cards came out: "Buy more Players, da. I need a number 13!"

BTW, I believe the lovely white horse on the first drumm banner card would be described in military parlance (and maybe by civvy horse fanciers too) as a "light grey". Good forbid we should make it easy by uisng everyday language!

Lovely cards. I have a very few, somewhere, of the Indian Army, and phtocopies (b&w) of more of the same (c. WWI) - very useful for uniform details, as you say.

Peter

I don't know from SS but even in the photo the stamp looks awfully crisp and dark for 65 year old ink.

Leigh Kitchen has taken up the mantle of Forum Host for the British Militaria Section. I give him a warm welcome and hope you all support him in his new role !

Huzzah! Well done, Leigh!

Peter

In typical understated British fashion, it meant something brave or industrious worthy of note but not quite enough for a medal. If the offcier or OR in question had a medal, he got the oakleaf. If not, then he had to be satisfied with a copy of the London Gazette with the relevant Citation: "Lt. Smith of the XXth battalion, the YYY Regiment, distinguished himself in the attack at Guancourt on 5 september, 1916." (or whatever - made that one up!)

Peter

'Eric Gaumann' said:

"I have to agree with Kevin here. My thoughts are basically the same.

It's a shame eBay pulls stuff like this. Unless there is a literal Canadian law prohibiting the sale of the Order Of Canada than the seller has every right to do with it as he pleases."

I agree with Kev but, Eric, there IS a law prohibiting the sale because, to get a bit technical, the recipeint died and his heir did not follow the law and return the piece to it's "owner" - the Governor General or Government of Canada. So, again technically, it could be construed that the gent is selling stolen goods!

I think it's a shame that important items from the history of (fill in the name of a nation here) are being sold out of (fill in nation here). However, if the heirs own them legitimately, like the Topham VC, and need the money or flat don't care, then it's up to the citizens of the nation to convince the government that they want said item to go into a national repository. A law just produces black market sales, sans proveneance, or a trip to the smelter!

Peter

Very classy!

Dan wrote:

"I must admit that the young boy in me was hoping for a confirmation of this being something special from the days of Imperial China. As a boy I'd always thought it was a Chinese executioners sword."

Dan

Keep it and tell the kids it IS a Chinese exectutioner's sword: "Yep, that's the very sword I wus executed with back in '06! Twice! Kept it as a souvenir 'cause they were so impressed with me they swore never to use it again."

Peter

Dan

The hunting swords are Nice !!

The "foil" looks like a product of the Spanish "sword" industry IMHO. The punched decoration on the hilt are usually a giveaway: "It's gotta be fancier. Give it to the kid and tell him not to cut himself." Easy to do, aesthetically blah, but makes it look "hand crafted". The other two make up for it, though. They're keepers for sure.

Peter

Dan

Here's my tuppence worth on the restoration and preservation end: don't!!! I used to polish stuff - love a shiny blade - and I still do with my repro. 1812 gear, bayonet and musket. but NOT with originals. I'm working on a museum's certificate and the very first course was "Care of Artifacts", a treasure trove of horror stories about what used to be done by ignorant museum-ites and civvies alike!

The problem is that anything which will take marks off the blade will also micro-scratch it further and allow new corrosion access. Wiping down with soft clothes and oil is ok, though in a dry climate you'll eventually get a buildup of old oil, which is a dust magnet. Bees wax, or the modern equivalent (pricey museum compunds) is good because it's removeable, though again with any engraved work, buildup in the grooves is an issue.

Old leather should NOT be touched. It loses it's natural oils and they cannot be restored. Think seasoned wood - pouring water on it does not make green timber again. The first thing to go is the flexibility, so attempting to re-stitch may result in torn holes, etc. Depends a lot on condition, but its one of those things that if it happens is irreversible.

The US Parks Service has an excellent series of bulletins called "Conserv-O-grams" on artifact preservation. Also, one of the big US museums has a series intended for non-specialist colectors of furniture, etc. If you google "artifact conservation" or conserv-o-gram" you'll find stuuf. The Parks stuff is downloadable.

Actually, that was a shilling's worth, but you get the idea. Good luck, mate.

Peter

Very very interesting! That huge mainspring would make it a bear to cock: looks like you could drive nails with the hammer. Any idea what held the flint in - is there a spot for a screw in the hammer? This thing looks technioligically one step up from a zip gun (steel tube, nail and rubber band) but it's a beauty: real, indigenous gunsmithing!

I don't have a source for this - long since lost the book - but the back of my mind is saying "Malaysia / Indonesia", based on the shape of the blade and the very square scabbard. Are you sure it's Chinese? Also, the handle looks like it would be very hard to hold for any useful work, so I'm guesing it's a souvenir piece, not a pukka weapon. Still very classy looking, though.

My tuppence worth.

Peter

Hello Kevin, basicly, it is an American program on small arms, 'they' invented the machinegun, the submachinegun, and the assault rifle, yeah. right!!!!

rgds

Pikestaff

Yes, but Alexander Graham Bellski, the "telephone Pole" invented electrical voice transmission. Say so right in the Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition!

MWAA-HA-HA! All part of our cunning plan to subvert the American way of life, since fluoridating their water doesn't seem to have worked. See, if we track a defence contractor to Kansas, then we'd know for sure that: 1) there is a Kansas and 2) people go there! Vital stuff!

I still think ya can't beat the CIA spending a couple hundred grand, back in the seventies, on psychic. Not that they believed in them, you understand, but the Russians DID, so... "I see a concrete missil silo. It's grey... It's on an island... There are no palm trees... It's in the north..."

Have a nice (private) day!

Peter

So... anyone have any ideas as to why it is worn, ergo.. issued... but without a name?

Chris

Not my speciality and many years since I was really up on details but I do not think the British ever issued unnamed medals in this period: you earned the medal (named) with one or more bars and later bars if any came looose and were added by wearer. Hence the many wild and wonderful arrangements of rivers, wire, pins, balin twine and spit on multibar medals, especally to Indian and Afrcian troops.

Best guess (mine, I mean): the recipeint lost his named medal and bought or otherwise "acquired" an unnamed specimen - which did come out of the mint not uncommonly for various reasons, including replacing lost gongs - and wore it next to his Khedive's Star. Th Star was a BIG bronze job which always marked up the Egypt and you almost always see both together if the group's not broken because the conditions for earning the two are very very close. (ie, in theory, you could earn one or the other but in fact it was rare not to qualify for both)

My tuppence worth. Still good beer here!

Peter

Our esyeemed Chair said:

The Sultan declared Brunei an Independent State supported by the British. In 1984 it became a totally independent State. However Brunei still has very close ties with Britain and the British Army still has a defence agreement with Brunei, including a Ghurka Battalion stationed there.

In fact, I believe that the Sultan rather reluctantly had independence thrust upon him by the British but onnly after they agreed that he would have permaqnenet use of one of the Gurkha battalions. Brunie now has at least 1 and I think 2 battalions of Gurkhas recruited from among the time-expired British Gurkha personnel. Or so I was told, some 20 years ago, by a recently retired Major of Ghurka's, then the Curator of the Gurkha Museum at Aldershot. He was in Brunei when the Sultan threw a big party - some anniversary or other and, according to the major, anything in a uniform got a medal pinned on it EXCEPT the corporal's gurad who actually gurded the palace during the banquet! He had that rectified by a direct address to the Sultan.

BTW, the Sultan is (if the same one) a noted Anglophile and, in the days before "dor.com millionaires" one of the world's richest individuals. He owns a small fleet of cars including numerous Rollers and the palave is large enough to have it's own stoplights. Another factoid for the "boring people at cocktail parties fund"!

Peter

I think we have reached a point where it is finally possible for us to make a film which shows "the other side" as being human and subject to the same fears and emotions as soldiers on "our side". I am looking forward to it. The fact that Clint Eastwood is involved makes me hope that it will be a decent film, not some U-571 crap.

Yes, Hollywood (which is a state of mind, not a place in America) has apparently recently discovered that both sides of almost every war are fought by real people, not "our guys" vs faceless hordes of (insert racial/political term of choice here).

I'm always glad, as a history teacher and amateur military historian, when audiences figure this out but at the same time usually saddened that it seems to be such a stunning revelation to so many apparently intelligent people! But then, I guess that's what education is about, no?

Peter

I think we have reached a point where it is finally possible for us to make a film which shows "the other side" as being human and subject to the same fears and emotions as soldiers on "our side". I am looking forward to it. The fact that Clint Eastwood is involved makes me hope that it will be a decent film, not some U-571 crap.

Yes, Hollywood (which is a state of mind, not a place in America) has apparently recently discovered that both sides of almost every war are fought by real people, not "our guys" vs faceless hordes of (insert racial/political term of choice here).

I'm always glad, as a history teacher and amateur military historian, when audiences figure this out but at the same time usually saddened that it seems to be such a stunning revelation to so many apparently intelligent people! But then, I guess that's what education is about, no?

Peter

Fantastic groups, thanks for sharing! Interesting that Lale had the India General Service Medal - could you tell me which bars as they are obscured by flash? Does anyone know the numbers of RAF who qualified for this medal? Can't have been awfully many, I suspect...

Gilbert

Gilbert

The Afghanistan bar went to about 850 RAF blokes of 52nd Wing (20,31,48 & 114 Sqs.); Mahsud bar quite rare: 175 to RAf, and its always won with the first one; last one went to about 600 RAF of 5,20,27,28,31,97 & 99 Sqs. (source: Gordon's ) Some infantry support, I believe but also a lot of leaflet dropping and some bombing of hostile villages and tribal war parties. Hazardous work, with lots of ground fire at "stringbag" aircraft and the possibility of a really nasty end if one made a forced landing in the wrong spot!

Peter

Guys

I think #32 is modelled on the badge of the (British) V Dragon Guards: large "V" with entwined 2 initials and a crown on top, so I'd guess (emphasis on "guess") it's a SA cavalry units: S.... Carbineers, S... Cavalry or summat. For what it's worth.

Peter

Hi Dave,

Just my opinion, but this strikes me as being more masonic than military. I did a quick search and the double-headed eagle came up as an emblem of Scottish freemasonry - some of these images are a reasonably close match: http://altreligion.about.com/library/graph...doubleeagle.htm

Hope this helps, let me know what more you discover, as my curiosity has been aroused now!

Cheers

Gilbert

Having gone round this roundabout last month on another list, I'd agree: Masonic, not military. But a very nice piece nevertheless. I believe we have a Masonic thread on this forum too. Maybe they can help.

BTW, the 1st KDG had one of the Austrian emporeres as their honorary colonel, hence their eagle.

My tuppence 'orth

Peter

Hello Paul,

I'm not good at Vatican awards either but the legend on yours seems to stand for "Lawyers of St. Peter" ... hence, possibly a badge of office for the Vatican's lawyers.

Cheers,

Hendrik

Good call, Hendrick! The "Advocati di San Pietro" or "Lawyers of St Peter" is an association for catholic lawyers who have been involved in legal work / cases to the benefit of the Catholic Church. Apparently the order was formed in 1877, with the "warm approval" of Pope Leo XIII and now has chapters throughout Europe and the Americas. (see entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia below).

Paul

I'd guess that the members of this group are self-selected, as it is not an official "order" of the Vatican state, and the quality of this particular badge is not good, unlike Vatican knightly orders in general. Origins? Again, see the list below. Nice curiosity piece, though.

Peter

***********************

A body of jurists constituting a society whose statutes were confirmed by a brief of Leo XIII, 5 July, 1878. As the name indicates, its main object is the defense of the Holy See in its rights and privileges, both in the spiritual and temporal order. It binds its members to refute calumnies of enemies of the Church, whether derived from distortions of history, jurisprudence, or dogma, but above all are they to devote their legal knowledge to a defense of the Church's rights before civil tribunals. The society was formed in 1877, on the occasion of the Golden Episcopal Jubilee of Pope Pius IX, and the Advocate Count Cajetan Agnelli dei Malherbi, of Rome, became its first president. Pope Pius IX warmly approved of the undertaking, and desired a wide extension of the society, as the immunities of the Church need defense everywhere, and under every system of government. It has spread rapidly over the Catholic world, and branches of the society are found among the principal nations of Christendom. The ordinary members must be jurists, but the society also enrolls as honorary members distinguished ecclesiastics or laymen who have made it a practice to defend Church interests along the lines of this organization. Colleges of the Advocates of St. Peter, numbering many hundred members, exist in Italy, England, Austria, France, Spain, Germany, Canada. and South America. All of there bodies are affiliated to the directory in Rome.

The flag is the Imperial Japanese War Flag, which symbolises the Japanese Victory at Singapore.

At the time of it's capture, the flag would have been the British Union Flag ("Union Jack"), as Singapore was still a Br colony at the time.

Peter

I dont like the grenade on it... if you are an average person, no military intrest you wont know what it is... looks like a knife with a "round thing of some sort" behind it.

I'm an above average person (That's my story and I'm sticking to it!) with a considerable interest in military stuff and it still looks like a knife with a round thing behind it!

BTW, did it ever occur to you that half the people you know are below average?

Peter

If you only have one of these you are looking for a one armed 32? - Master of the Royal Secret - Scottish Rite

Or just a very careless 32? - Master of the Royal Secret - Scottish Rite

The Bronze Star in question is named and part of a mounted group, so it's not really replaceable if something goes wrong...

Ouch! Tough call.

I suspect though, that the US Museum folks meant you had to clean the brass/bronze with dental picks -ie: very very gently chip away the green, then use naptha to "kill" the chemicals cauisng it so as to prevent a recurrence. I'm pretty sure when it gets to the "crust" stage, verdigris can only be removed by physical, not chemical, cleaning, because it indictaes the metal itself is breaking down: the bronze equivalent of rust. The best you can hope for is to get it off and prevent more - hence naptha- but not restore the original finish because it's not a surface contanminant it's actually coming from the bronze itself.

Having said all that, you may want to leave it alone and not risk ruining the group. A few years ago I'd have been an industrious "cleaner" myself, but since taking a conservation course for a museum study's certificate, I'm tending to the museum's approach which is "keep it from getting worse; do nothing you can't undo" (eg, wax, never lacquer). Sorry not to be more help.

Peter