Schießplatzmeister

12 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

That is a very unusual Schnalle, you don't often see the Schleswig-Holstein cross on a mounted group. It was possible to have the steel NK medal for 1870 on the war ribbon. What is the medal with the green ribbon?

Hello Vince,

The medal with the green ribbon is a Brazilian medal for the 1852 campaign in Uruguay (during the Platine War).  This is a very nice and unusual group!

Best regards,

3 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Peter,

my bet is:

Militärverdienstmedaille Bayern

Militärverdienstkreuz 2 X ? Bayern

Verdienstkreuz Gold X Österreich

 

Kind regards

Andreas

Hello Peter,

I agree with Andreas.  This field ribbon bar most-likely belonged to an NCO (who could have been promoted to a field-grade Leutnant in WWI) who was a MVM/TKM recipient.  There is therefore no way to identify who the recipient of these awards was.  There is nothing to necessarily indicate that this belonged to a MMJO recipient.  I believe that you can eliminate this having belonged to Ritter von Thoma or Ritter von Weber.

Congratulations regarding having this nice "soft-style" sew-on field ribbon bar for your collection!

Best regards,

Hello Alex,

My guess is an unofficial veteran's badge for I.R. 126.  Perhaps from a meeting of regimental veterans.  The photo is from the 1930's, so this would make sense.

Best regards,

The ribbon on the right does indeed look like a Russian St. George Order/Cross ribbon, but it is difficult to tell exactly what it is due to the fact that it is tightly folded.  The 1909 Militär-Handbuch shows no Russian awards for Leopold Prinz von Bayern.  He received quite a few foreign awards, including Austrian awards, so there are many possibilities.

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:43, filfoster said:

Where's his Iron Cross 2nd class?  1870-71 medal?

I think that they are there underneath many layers of other awards.  You can see that the "25" anniversary 1895 oakleaves for the EKII are there in your photo if you compare it to the photo of the group prior to it being stolen.  Also, the 1870/71 campaign medal would be directly under all of the campaign bars.

3 hours ago, filfoster said:

Does this medal bar still exist?  In a museum?

This is a good question.  It is not listed as still missing, so it may have been recovered.  I have a feeling that these items may no-longer be on display due to security concerns.  Perhaps some of our friends in Bavaria will know the answer regarding the current situation.

Here is a link to the Schloß and Museum website:

http://www.hohenschwangau.de/

Here is a photo of the Leopold Prinz von Bayern's large medal bar as it existed at Hohenschwangau Castle prior to being stolen.  There is also a listing of the awards that remained on it (most gold orders appear to have been removed.  Perhaps some were returned to the Order Chancellery per statute?). The photo and listing is from the Bavarian Police information poster after the burglary of November, 2005.

Here is an article regarding the burglary and the recovery of some of the stolen items:

https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/bayern/Gestohlene-Orden-aus-Schloss-Hohenschwangau-sind-zurueck-id7964841.html

Here is a link to the current Bavarian Police information regarding pieces which were not recovered:

https://www.polizei.bayern.de/fahndung/sachen/diebesgut/index.html/12400

Hello Claudio,

Congratulations on owning this fantastic group.

I once had the pleasure of seeing George Seymour's collection before he passed away.  He was a very nice gentleman with one of the best collections this side of the Atlantic.

I have recently seen the items for Franz Kress von Kressenstein that came onto the market.  I purchased one item that was family-related.  It is interesting how these family items come onto the market from time to time.

MfG,

Hello Wessel,

This is a great question.  I know of no instance where, while in uniform, the PLM ribbon only (buttonhole, field ribbon bar) was worn to signify the award.  If in uniform, the award was usually worn.

For civilian wear there were miniature buttonhole ribbons that would signify the full-size award.

Best regards,

Hello again Albert,

I don't think that you will be disappointed with the Klein, Ulrich, and Raff book.  Let me know what you think when you receive it.  Here is the book that lists Württemberg golden MVM recipients:

I have seen it available for €180 or less.  There are not that many other books out there that I can think of.  Auction catalogues would also be a good source for information regarding Württemberg awards.  Look at Uwe Bretzendorfer's website also.

Best regards, 

No. 6 is the Preußen Goldene Hochzeitsmedaille 1. Klasse!

4 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

Is it possible that this was the uniform King Wilhelm II of Württemberg himself?

I think I can see a field marshall batton on the shoulder-boards (he was made a field marshall in 1916)

Were there others who updated their "gestickter Waffenrock" after 1910 (where it was abolished if I remember correctly)?

 

 

 

 

 

At Laurentius: never seen that one before, looks like a Kronen-Orden backside medaillon...

No, this is not the uniform of King Wilhelm II of Württemberg.  The uniform belonged to a member of the Grand Ducal Baden household.  See the Baden Hausorden der Treue GK ribbon! 

Hello Albert,

If you are interested in WW1-era Württemberg orders and decorations, then the Klein, Ulrich und Raff second volume would be the one for you.  You are correct about the price, the book is rather expensive.  It is beautifully published however.

I see your point about there being no book listing Württemberg MVO recipients.  If I recall correctly, I believe that there may be a book listing the gold bravery medal recipients however.

There is also the book by Neal O'Connor: Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in World War I and the Men Who Earned Them, Volume IV (which covers Württemberg).  It is a nicely done book and is available usually at a modest price.

Best regards,

Hello Albert,

Actually there are a few superb books regarding Württemberg's orders and medals.  I highly recommend: Klein, Ulrich und Raff, Albert. Die Württembergischen Medaillen von 1797-1864 (einschließlich der Orden und Ehrenzeichen). Verlag der Münzen- und Medaillenhandlung. Stuttgart, 2003.  There is also a second volume which covers the period from 1864 - 1933.  In addition, these authors have covered the history of Württemberg coins in various other books that they have written.

Best regards,

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:15, ixhs said:

Hello again!

Here we have 2 "bavarian" pics, i recently got.

Can somebody help to ID the bavarian General on pic # 1 ?

He wears the IC, bavarian MMO on his neck & star. I think it`s a pic with his staff.

The pic was taken in bavaria.

# 2 was taken in Freising. It shows a group of veterans. The NCO in the middle wears his bar in a funny way (or it is a Frackbar)

On pos. 1 bavarian MMC 3rd class with X and crown, IC and on the last position the rare bavarian bravery medal (i don`t know if it is the silver or golden grade)

I had luck - the seller did not know the rarity of the pic (postcard) - Can we ID the units? Infanterists? Jäger????

On the left a guy who looks a bit like the last russian czar Nikolaus. lol..

Thanks again for help.

 

 

zähringer18.tif

zähringer22.tif

Hello,

Congratulations regarding these very nice photos.  The general appears to possibly be wearing a MMJO RK ribbon in his buttonhole.

Best regards,

On ‎08‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 05:23, pep said:

hi there!

as told previously I'm new in imperial collecting. reading a lot all around to learn as it seems to be a faked field as TR items are. looking around for a PLM award. I'm not interested in the more expensives ones, mainly because I can't afford them. but I read about 30's made replacement awards. they seem affordable to me but I'm aware of the large amount of copies.

where can I get info about these last?

what do you think about this one??

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/03/Preussen_Orden_Pour_le_M_eacute_rite__296303.html

Welcome to Imperial collecting!

The PLM is one of the most counterfeited Imperial Orders.  There exist counterfeit pieces of excellent quality.  My suggestion would be to look at every piece that you can and to look at genuine pieces in old collections and museums.  Gather knowledge (this may take many years) before you spend any money.

Good luck!

Hello,

This appears to be an old private striking made from different dies than the originals.  It is also probably not made from captured enemy cannon bronze and therefore lacks the "from captured cannon" impression on the edge.  As noted the suspension is unlike the originals and the ribbon is not of the proper type.  It is "original", but is a period-made piece offered for sale by a private firm and is not a piece that was awarded by a government entity.

Best regards,

Hello,

This item rather newly made.  It has machine engraving that is unlike anything that would have been made in 1914.  It also has a glaring grammatical error that I see (and I am not a native German speaker).  It was therefore prepared by someone who was did not speak German.  This item has no value in my opinion.

Plaques and table medals awarded to individuals are known, but they certainly did not look like this.

Best regards,

The piece is original and in good condition.  The price is rather steep however! :-)

Hello,

I don't see any problems with this field ribbon bar.  The order of ribbon placement/precedence is strange, but I have seen much stranger original field ribbon bars.

Best regards,

Hello John,

This piece is correct.  The ribbon is a modern copy however.  The deciding factor regarding purchase should now be the price.  A Commander in gold may be found for a reasonable price if you search a bit.  Good luck.

Best regards, 

Hello all,

I see nothing to immediately question the authenticity of this ribbon bar.  I believe that it is not for a Prussian recipient necessarily, but possibly for a Princely recipient (Prince of Hohenzollern?).  But it could also have been for a high-ranking general officer as all of the star devices have swords.  I believe that this ribbon bar does not represent all of the awards of the recipient, but was an abbreviated version for wear.  An interesting piece!

Best regards, 

Hello Paul,

No worries!  Thank you for your thorough observations and explanation.  I have very little knowledge regarding this particular Order.  I thought that you were probably leaning on the side of satire!  I now see what you mean about the altered star body.  I am very familiar with stories regarding this individual.  You comment "It is best to stick with the urkundes they tend to be less of a problem" has me in stitches!!!  I have an interest in the awards of Ferdinand and have examined a piece in person from the Karlheinz Müller sale.  Although I didn't mention my opinion above, my guess is that this particular piece may have been assembled circa "2015".  Much older than 2018!

Best regards,

Hello,

This particular piece is not listed in the 1989 Karlheinz Müller, Limburg auction catalogue which had a large number of the Orders and uniforms of Zar Ferdinand 1. of Bulgaria.

The seller's description does not mention a relationship to Zar Ferdinand 1. of Bulgaria:

 "Georgien Orden der Heiligen Tamara, Bruststern 1.Klasse in übergroßer Ausführung für Generäle,

wohl Silber und teilweise vergoldet, Zentrum Silber mit vergoldeten Erhöhungen, mehrteilig gearbeitet
(zweiteiliger Stern bestehend aus einem vierstrahligen silbernen und goldenen Stern, diese rückseitig vierfach verschraubt),
rückseitig an feinem Nadelsystem, Höhe 96,07 mm (also wie ein Großkreuzstern !!!), herausragend gearbeitetes Stück in absolutem Bestzustand,
 in dieser fast einmaligen Ausführung extrem selten"

A curious piece to be certain.  Apparently there is no provenance regarding this piece.  It appears to be well-made, but one cannot be certain regarding who made it and when it was made. 

Best regards,

27 minutes ago, dond said:

Then it has to be pre-Centennial/ 25 year Oaks. What 1870/1 campaign medal, fighter or stay at home steel?  I assume with the EK on Black/white ribbon it would be a bronze one.  Still not sure about the DA since the ribbon is blue.

Hello again Don:

The 1870/71 campaign medal would be bronze as this soldiers other awards were combat-related.  The DA ribbon does look more blue than green, but this is normal for these early ribbons.  I have seen this before concerning groups from this era.  Here is an example of an earlier-type DA ribbon that is somewhat similar in color:

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/24/Sachsen_Koenigreich_Landwehr_Dienstauszeichnung_II_Klasse_1874_1913__292524.html

Best regards,

2 hours ago, Leutwein said:

Hello all,

do we really have a FAM-ribbon? The ribbon looks like the saxon "Erinnerungkreuz" for 1866:

http://orden.100ossi100.bplaced.net/24a6bc96790dcbe01/24a6bc97a510ac401/index.html

The last ribbon could also stands for a swedish decoration!

best regards

Karsten

Agreed!

This is a pre-WWI large medal bar.  The first position should be an 1870/71 EKII, followed by the 1866 Sachsen Erinnerungkreuz (Campaign Cross), followed by a Saxon DA, followed by an 1870/71 campaign medal.  The last ribbon is interesting and definitely could be a Swedish decoration.  So, properly restored, back to the way it was, it could be much more interesting.

Hello Pep:

Welcome to the forum.  Your eyes did not deceive you.  For Prussian Crown Order awards there are at least five proper ribbons that I can think of off the top of my head:

The cornflower blue ribbon for awards without swords (non-combatant awards).

The black ribbon with white side stripes (Iron Cross-style) for combatant awards (with swords).

The white ribbon with multiple narrow black stripes and narrow red borders (ie: the same as the WWI Prussian War Aid Cross).  This was the ribbon for awards with the "Geneva Cross" awarded mostly for the 1870-71 conflict to male medical staff.

The white ribbon with black side stripes (Iron Cross-style).  Very few special awards made.

The lifesaving medal ribbon (orange with white side-stripes).  Very few special awards made.

There may be more ribbon possibilities, but this is not my area of expertise.

Regarding field ribbon bar devices there are a variety of possibilities:

On the cornflower blue ribbon there would usually be no device, unless worn in the Austrian-style with a device representing a higher-grade.

On the black ribbon with white side stripes, crossed swords would be normal.

On the ribbon for the Geneva Cross award, a Geneva Cross device is sometimes seen.

I probably didn't address all of your questions, but now you have a starting place.  There are many good publications on this topic (in German).

Best regards,