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Posts posted by Schießplatzmeister
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Portrait of Prince Regent Luitpold of Bavaria (12 March 1821 – 12 December 1912) dedicated to Heinrich Reder, since 1871 Ritter von Reder (* 19 March 1824 in Mellrichstadt; † 17. February 1909 in Munich):
„In Erinnerung an den Tag von Ormes (Orleans) – 11. Oktober 1870. München den 1. März 1906 – dem Tag der 100jährigen Stiftungsfeier des Militär-Max-Josephs-Ordens. Luitpold P v Bayern“
In memory of the day of Ormes (Orleans) – 11 October 1870. Munich 1 March 1906 – the day of the 100 anniversary of the founding of the Military Order of Max Joseph. Luitpold P v Bayern“
During the battle of Orleans-Ormes on 11 October 1870 Reder received the order to place himself on the right flank with two platoons of the 8th battery of the 3rd Artillery Regiment in order to fight the enemy artillery. This 1200 meter galopping move happened under heavy fire through the deep trenches of the street “Les-Barres-Orleans”. He was awarded the Military Order of Max Joseph and thus the new title „Ritter von Reder“. In 1908 he became General Major.
Hello:
A very nice and interesting item. Thank you for sharing it and congratulations on owning it.
Best regards,
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That is an amazing article, I really need to pick up that book. Can't find it anywhere, have you read it Chris? Hoping to find a translated copy somewhere. Has anyone seen any documentation on who Joseph Ritter Von Steiner's brothers name? I know he was in the military around this time but wonder what his involment was in WWI and WWII
Hello:
Joseph Ritter von Steiner had two brothers who were named Johann and Martin. Both of them were killed in action during the first World War.
Best regards,
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Hello,
many thanks for your reply. Here's the full ribbon
Hello again Sergio:
Well, that changes everything! Without the center red stripe, I do not think that it is from Hessen-Darmstadt! This is now even more of a mystery.
Best regards,
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The ribbon
Hello Sergio:
A very interesting medal group. In my opinion, the ribbon is NOT Bavarian. It is the same as the ribbon for Hessen-Darmstadt Arts and Sciences merit medals and for Hessen-Darmstadt Fire Brigade medals. It may be impossible to ever know exactly what was there originally. Perhaps our resident Hessian expert Rudi will have some ideas?
Best regards,
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Because Redenbach was mentioned, here his medal bar, incl. the real gold medal.
Regards
Alex
Hello Alex:
Congratulations regarding owning this wonderful group. I remember when it sold on a German dealer's website a few years ago. There were also some nice photographs with it if I remember correctly.
Best regards
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Hello Ulsterman:
Sorry, to clarify, I meant "BMVK2x" when I wrote "MVKII with swords". But, I forgot to include the crown! So, it was really a Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd Class with Swords and Crown most likely. So, we are talking about the same thing. Thinking about Bavarian items all of the time, I often forget about the other States!
Yes, there is the "Bayerns Goldenes Ehrenbuch" which has the citation information for the recipients listed. If there was a name to go with the field ribbon bar, then the citation information could be found there. Unfortunately, this WWI combination (Bavarian Military Merit Medal/Bravery Medal, Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd Class with Swords and Crown, and Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class) was not that unique, so finding out which soldier owned this field ribbon bar would be difficult without any supporting documents/history.
Best regards
Wow. That bar is REALLY interesting. A Bav Bravery medal without a BMVK2x is really unusual.....makes me think Prussian or imperial service somehow. Isn't there a Bav. bravery medal book?
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Hello Alan:
Congratulations regarding this very nice field ribbon bar. The recipient was most likely a MVM/TKM recipient (gold or silver) in WWI. He was also most likely a MVK II with swords recipient. There is nothing to indicate that he was an Officer, or may have received a field grade promotion. The odds are therefore against him having been a MMJO (MJ3) recipient.
Best regards
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Hi Spolei,
I think it is the Max Joseph Orden. I looked through my 1929 rangliste, and could only find 4-5 bearers of this award. But could not match up the NSDAP 10 year award nor the Austrian Anschluss medal to any of the likely recipients.
He could have re-enlisted or been drafted later on...
Best Regards
Alan.
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Hi all,
is it allowed to wear more than 2 bands?
westfale
Hello Westfale:
I don't know what the regulations stated during this time, but this was a common practice. What is interesting here is that our brave Bavarian soldier has a TKM/MVM ribbon (and also an MVK and EK ribbon)! An with the EKI too! He definitely did something rather brave in combat at some point. Do you know his name? If so, I can look up his TKM/MVM citation information.
Best regards
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Does anyone know if winners of the TKM wear more or less assured of a Civil Service Job of some sort?
Andreas (Spolei) showed me a photo of a relatives group who also had a 25 year civil service cross.
Best
Chris
Hello Chris:
An excellent question. Based upon what I have seen, recipients were not guaranteed a civil service job, but if they were qualified, I believe that it certainly helped during the 3rd Reich to have been a MVM/TKM recipient. I have seen cases of many recipients who went on to become civil servants, and some who did not.
Keep in mind however, if you were from a Jewish family and a TKM recipient, you were lucky if you were aloud to leave the country in the late 1930's. I have also seen the cases of political enemies of the State who were MVM/TKM recipients who were sent to Dachau for a few months to let them think about how erroneous their socialist ideals and activities were. I know of one Silber MVM/TKM recipient who was sent there twice!
Best regards
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This pouch is identical in proportions to the WWII MG34/42 MG parts/tool pouches and is carried in the same location on the duty belt. So, I believe that this brave soldier was on a MG team most likely.
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Hello again:
I just noticed the large pouch on the soldier's belt on his right side. Is this a MG tool kit pouch or a Medical kit pouch? Interesting!
Sadly, we can't see the numbers on his Epauletten, but I wonder if he is a soldier from a Grand Duchy of Baden regiment or a Royal Bavarian regiment?
Best regards
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Hello Chris and Rick:
I hate to disagree with Rick (who is usually always correct), but I believe that this medal is a Grand Duchy of Baden, Military Merit Medal (silver). If one looks closely at the photograph, one can see that the suspension is of the usual "Baden-type". The narrow dark stripe in the middle of the ribbon also matches the "red" stripe proportions for the Baden ribbon for this medal. I know that on Ebay it was listed as a bayerische MVM/TKM photo, and that at first it looks like it should be (especially with the bayerische MVK next to it), but I believe that it is not.
Best regards
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Speaking of (Imperial German) fakes.
Caution! This may make your teeth hurt -
http://princefrederi...d=86&Itemid=123
Hello Wildcard!
A great link! :-) If you notice he has a "shop" on the website. "His" uniform is on sale for the bargain price of USD 160,000. I wonder if "his" Orders are included. What a bargain, I am on my way to the bank now.
Also, on the internet, I found a photo of him in his rollerblade attire shirtless, and wearing a copy of the Order of Albert the Bear (probably in the Grand Cross size) around his neck on a chain. This guy has real class! They must love him in Germany!
Note: I will spare all of you from having to actually view the photo, so I will not re-post it here!
Best regards
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Thank you Andreas! This is the photo from the sale, when it arrives I will take a photo showing ribbons number six and seven more clearly. I appreciate your help here! On another note, would it have been possible for someone to have earned medals from all those different states/countries?
Hello:
Yes, it was entirely possible for such awards to have been made depending on the unit in which the soldier served or the particular duties that they had. The Austrian, Hungarian, and Bulgarian World War Commemorative Medals were available in the 1930's to soldiers who had served in the World War, submitted an application for the award, and payed the required fee. The same situation existed for the Honor Cross for Frontfighters. The first four (4) awards however were usually combat-related and were awarded upon recommendation of the Commanding Officer. In 1914 the EKII the was very prestigious, by 1918 if a soldier DIDN'T have one, they were unusual.
I believe that "Ordensschleifen", "Bandschleifen", or "Ordensbandschleifen" would all describe this ribbon group adequately.
Best regards
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Yes, I will be there with many books for sale regarding Orders and decorations. I always enjoy this show. It is a great place to meet a variety of collectors from around the world.
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Hello:
Per a tip submitted by Tom on this website years ago (and as mentioned by someone else above), I have used Boeshield T9 and had excellent results in stopping further oxidation [yes; Fe+H2O through a series of reactions ends up as Fe2O3 (rust)] of iron/steel items. This product also helps prevent future oxidation. The good thing about this product is that it does not damage painted surfaces and that after it dries it leaves a coating that is not easily detectable. A wonderful product that is a bit expensive, but well worth the purchase price in my opinion.
Best regards
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Sadly, for autograph collectors this was often standard practice in the past as they only cared about the signature and not the context in which it appeared. Often, these scraps were then pasted in a scrap book. I am certain that much history has been lost due to this practice.
Many order/medal collectors are not totally innocent however. Estates get split-up all of the time with helmets going to one collector, medals to another, uniforms to yet another, etc., etc. Most dealers now do this to get the highest dollar/euro amount for the items as most collectors are too specialized to want everything. I know of many order and medal collectors who don't know anything about the documents associated with the awards nor do they care. So, while we are quick to judge, sometimes our narrow focus is also part of the problem that causes "history" to be lost.
For wishing the death was painful?
On German ebay a seller is selling 110s of Autographs collected by a now departed Autograph collector....
All neatly cut out from the original document.....
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Hello Alf:
Here are two "must see" places to visit in Paris:
Musee de L'Armee
Musée national de la Légion d'Honneur
Have a wonderful trip!
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Hello Thierry:
This Wikipedia article has the information from "Virtuti Pro Patria".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_von_Zottmann
Is there more specific information that you are looking for?
Best regards
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Hello Chris:
Thank you for posting these photos. This is a mystery indeed!
The PLM on the right is a well-known type of copy of relatively modern manufacture. The piece on the left is possibly a Godet made piece that was modified. I would like to hear more about the story behind this. When did Jacobs give these items to Dr. Parks? Is is possible to also get a photo of the other medals that are with the Jacobs items?
Since Jacobs died in 1978 in is entirely possible that he gave these items to Dr. Parks. The piece on the right may have been a piece that Jacobs owned and used for actual wearing, or a piece that he purchased to give as a gift.
Very interesting.
Best regards
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Hello Detlef:
This piece is not made of gold and is not an officially awarded piece. At best, it is a period copy made for everyday wear on the large medal bar.
There were genuine gold pieces, but they were awarded very early in the history of the award. They are extremely rare.
Best regards
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I read the so-called identification of the HOH3 by a member here. Basically, he said that he saw a picture of it, and declared unilaterally that it is a post 1930 piece. That's it. No explanation of why he thinks the HOH3 is post 1930. Who has held this piece in his hand and evaluated it? Not many, I should think. People who talk in Absolutes and who use words like "Definitely" about a tricky subject like this should maybe try to take a more analytical and scientific approach.
Hello:
I have personally inspected this item and I concur 100% with the comments made by the very experienced collector/dealer who made the comments regarding the HHO3 and determined that it is a post-1930 piece.
Best regards
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Hello Phillipe:
I have seen many WWI German photos with numbers. I believe that they usually indicated the photographer's catalogue number. A soldier/officer could then order a print based upon the number indicated. I have not seen photos before with the "O" or "S", but perhaps this was part of a similar cataloguing system and nothing more.
Best regards
Hello,
Sometimes I saw and I have in my collection some photos (not Feldpost) with a white number (ex: S 141; O. 24, etc...)
It's certainly for the photograph but I know there is sometimes a list with the number where the photo was taken.
In german : Verzeichnis der "Somme"- aufnahmen. Photogr.Abteil. 1918 or 17...
Where is it possible to find a list like that ? or is there a member who has one.....
Difficult for a collector to put a name to a place.!
Thanks for your help and your time.
From Belgium,
Philippe
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Hello Daniel:
The HHO is NOT gold. It is gilded-silver if I remember correctly. The SEHO piece is gilded silver. There are no gold awards on this bar which does not make sense for this time period.
Best regards
I would like to hold it in my hands for a proper inspection. I have some serious doubts about it.
It might be that the bar alone os real, but single decorations are at least partly exchanged.
Why?
- the Red Eagle is a crappy "wearers copy" - the Hohenzollern seems to be golden; why to put one awarded piece and one self purchased next to each other??
- the Ernestinian looks silver gilt, at that time it should have been awarded I would expect a solid golden one
- the Saxon albert knight 2nd class seems to be a quite low class on that bar. Usually foreigners got one step higher than native Saxons that time, so I would at least expect a knight 1st.
Greetings
Daniel
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What's he wearing? Same Guy?
in Germany: Imperial: The Orders, Decorations and Medals of The Imperial German States
Posted
Hello Chris:
It looks to me to probably be a Prussian long service medal (either 9 or 12 years). There is no way to be 100% certain due to the quality of the photo, but this is most likely.
Nice photos!
Best regards,