CroppyBoy1798

Bloody hell.......will you adopt me? Thats some collection! I have to fault you on one thing though..........WHERE are the Lee Enfield(s) no collection can be complete without one How easy are such weapons to come by over there? Are they resonably priced? What are the laws regarding them, it seems as if they are all hanging on your living room wall

Looks good David, its a 'Savage' alright, technically not an 'SMLE' though, the SMLE was the No1......but thats just me nitpicking

1918 Ishapore No1 MkIII* with various WW1 pieces and memento's

Hi Travis, dont know if you're still about, but I'll help answer some of your questions. The markings: GR = Georgius Rex (King George) BSA Co = Birmingham Small Arms Co 1917 = Year of manufacture Sht LE = Short Lee Enfield III* = 3rd model of the No1 series, the * designated that it was a modified MkIII, ie it was simplified for war time production. The mag cutoff, volley sights, stacking swivel and unit disc were deleted from the manufacting process to save time and effort. The MkIII* was produced by BSA from early 1916-1918. In all likely hood I say bubba got a hold of that rifle some time back and hacked the forestock down, there are no official shortened stock No1's. So it was probably cut and got a lot of use there after so that it almost 'looks' as if its always been like that. The magazine too, that should hold 10 rounds and when inserted properly the back wall of the mag should be more or less level with the bottom of the trigger guard. As for the history of the rifle, thats a mystery, there is not much I, or anyone can tell you for certain. Being made in 1917, it most likely saw action in WW1, if it has a brass disc in the buttstock with markings on it, then perhaps it can be traced to a certain regiment, if not then other various govermantal markings are the only rough clue to its past. Enjoy it!

The rifle was made by BSA during the inter war years, it was a contract rifle made for the Siamese Goverment, the marking is otherwise known as the 'smiling or laughing tiger', as for what the text means I havent heard a translation as of yet.

Sounds like you got a nice one Hun Helmet, one that has that 'been there done that look' from the sound of it. I wouldnt worry about the timber, it may have had a tough life and as you say, been oiled a bit too much, but thats not a bad thing, better than been dry and cracked . Any chance of a pic or two? I always like to see an ol' Smelly CroppyBoy1798

Happy to be of assistance. To answer your question regarding the different models of the Enfield. The previous version, the MKIII, was in all respects similar to the version you have now, but there were fitted with: a long range volley sight system, which had a plate and dial arm in the forestock and an apeture arm in the safety setup (if you look at the safety you will see a washer in there, that space would have been occupied by the sight). Also a magazine cutoff would have been used, the mag cut off was simply a metal plate that slid across the top of the magazine, blocking its feed so that only single rounds could be loaded and fired at a time, for controlled fire. Also a feature of the MkIII was a brass disc in the butstock which would have had the unit or regiment, to which the rifle belonged, stamped on it. Other minor modifications include the removal of the 'stacking swivel'. Slight alteration to the rear sight ears and the removal of the windage knob on the rear sight. With the MkIII* these things were removed for a couple of reasons. 1. The long range volley sight was proven to be in affective and no longer needed with the large scale introduction of the machine gun. 2. The magazine cut off was outdated and no longer needed, in the heat of battle it also proved to be in affective as it could get closed by accident and leave a soldier with no feed when he needed it most! 3. The brass regiment disc, if the rifle was captured, could provide the enemy with information as to which units or regiments they were facing. But the major factor for ommiting these items was, to save time and money. For the most part they were gotten rid of mid/late 1916, it was a war time expediment to save time, money and get rid of things that basically werent needed. It didnt change the style or design of the rifle for the most part, just removed a few bits. For $200, you didnt do too bad at all, so well done, as for what other firearms are availible on a budget, I honestly have no idea, I'm an Enfield man so not too knowledeable on the other weapons. Take care, CroppyBoy1798

Hi Borgnine and welcome to the forum Congrats on the SMLE, she seems to be a nice one! I'll give you a little info to get you started on your research, but be warned........once you have one SMLE, you cant stop at that, you'll have to get another What you have is, as you know a No1 MkIII* Short Lee Enfield, the '*' meaning it was a simplifies MkIII, it had the long range volley sights removed, the magazine cutoff removes and in some cases the brass identification disc removed. And your particular rifle, was as you know, made in 1920 by Lithgow. Who were producing SMLE's from 1912 and still refurbing them as late as 1956. They only ever made the No1 MkIII and MkIII* series, but did run off a few experimental 'jungle carbines' based on the No1 action. The serial numbers all seem to match, although at one time the reciever had a different serial and was lined out and forced matched to the rest of the gun or the weapon was simply given a new serial as I see the same lined out serial on the stock. Just on the leg of the charger bridge you have the stamp 'JJCO NY NY' that is the stamp of the importer, John Jovino Company, based in New York. They specialised in importing Lithgow made SMLE's and have also know to have put together No1's from spare parts and pass them off as being originals. But your's seems to be ok and from what I see 100% original. On the barrell just behind the sight is stamped HV and SC, the HV meaning 'High Velocity' and the SC 'Short Cone', they refer to the type of ammunition. Is the same serial number stamped on the underside of the rear sight? I cant see it in the picture provided. The, what appears to be '26' scratched into the stock could be a rack number, or a troop passing time, so thats not of great importance. When you strp it down you are likely to find an absolute ton of inspection, proof and manufactures markings, all are interesting, but for the most part are not so important. You will probably see, on the rear of the reciever, below the woodline a line of star shape stamps with the numbers 1-10 in each of the stars, these were stamped after various inspections were carried out. Lithgows were usually stocked in coachwood, but in earlier years Walnut and queensland maple was used. Yours appears to be coachwood. Although a hardwood, it was prone to splitting quite easily. Hence you will see a number of re-inforcing brass pins in it. Also, because of its tendancy to split, copper recoil plates had to be fitted to the rear of the forearm where the reciever meets the wood, make sure they are in place before firing the weapon!! Another point to note is that the coachwood needs a good soaking of linseed oil to keep the wood supple and prevent splitting, yours looks to be fairly well soaked so it should be ok. Thats about it. I hope that was of some help to you and should you require any more info, have questions or such, then feel free to ask. Al the best, CroppyBoy1798

Hi Paul, the wire cutters was an e-bay buy and from what I was told was recovered in France last summer. And when I got it still had a lot of loose rust and mud/dirt present in it, I cleaned it up as best as possible, but there is only so much you can do. And of course this means the action instide it is seized up, a real pity. They were one of the wackier inventions of WW1, and from what I heard not much good, because of the fact that they had to be used on the end of the rifle and you had to use your rifle as a level to operate the cutters, hence standing in 'no mans land'....not good as you can well imagine. Thus there wasnt a great demand for them and production stopped, many of them, like this one would have been lost in the field and those that survived for the most part were destroyed, making the odd few that escaped the net VERY desirable. CroppyBoy1798

A nice collection you have there Paul R. I was very surprised to hear that grenade launcher came out of the ground, I never would have thought it was just by looking at the picture. I recently got an 'out of the ground' item, a WW1 SMLE wire cutting attachment, but unfortunately its a lot worse for wear than your launcher, still, I guess it was in the ground 30 years more or so . As you can see in the pic below its in relic condition, but it has that 'been there, done that look' and the fact that these are pretty rare makes even one in this condition nice to have. CroppyBoy1798

Chris, ROF is 'Royal Ordanance Factory' and the (F) stands for Fazakerly, so it was produced by ROF at there Fazakerly plant.

Nice lookin' No4's there Chris, well done As for the grooves, now maybe I'm wrong, but I think there were unique to American and Canadian production, dont hold me on that, but I think thats it. What is the reason for the slits? Well no one really knows for sure, the most plausable explanation seems to be that they were for some kind of grip, as thats where you'd hold the rifle when carrying it off your shoulder. Another reason I heard was to increase the surface area of the grip over what is a very warm part of the gun, thus preventing splitting of the timber. I think the grip one is more likely It was one of them things that just disapeared after a while, they stopped making the grooved handguards, too much time wasted in making them. Who manufactured the rifles you have? Savage, Longbranch, Maltby, ROF, BSA? CroppyBoy

Gordon, glad to be of assistance, As for the ammo issue, I cant really understand why your empty shells wont fit in, I mean .303 is .303 no matter when it was made, there were variations between MkV and MkVI ammo, but the only difference was with the fill and the head, the brass shell never changed. Have a close look at the shells, are they in anyway damaged or slightly bulged at the neck? What I think though, and maybe I am wrong, but I have some .308 shells here which are stamped RG 75. The RG stands for ROF (Royal Ordanance Factory), Radway Green. The 7/55 is probably the date, July 1955. As for your bayonet, what are the markings on it? Can you post a picture of them, they are the making and breaking of a good fake. Again I hope thats of some help and anymore questions I'd be delighted to help! Peter, thats correct, the Aussies did produce there own unique little carbine, the No6. Incedentally, the name 'Jungle Carbine' only got attached to them in the 1960's in the USA, as a advertising stunt. There were very few numbers of the No6 ever produced, there serial numbers having the letter prefix 'XP' for 'experimental'. However, in saying that many companies in the US are making copies of this carbine by cutting down old Lithgow No1's, and sticking a flash hider on the end of the barrell, however these are easily identified as fakes by the serial. Fakes are big business when it comes to the Lee Enfield, you have 'tanker carbines' just shortened SMLE's, the fakes No6's as mentioned, of course fake No'5, these are merely cut down No4's but again are easily identifiable by the lack of lightening cuts and the 'No4 MkI' or 'No4 MkII' on the side of the reciever. There have even been Indian 2A and 2A1's appearing as jungle carbines. Regards, CroppyBoy1798

Hi Gordon, I'm new here so this is my first post and I noticed your questions on your SMLE. TO answer some of them for you the : EY means Emergancy Use ( I heard one source that claim it meant 'Edward Yule', but I dont know) and the DP, as you know means: Drill purpose. Therefore, at some point your rifle was downgraged to Emergany Use, hence it was not fit for front line use for any number of reasons, worn barrell, damage to reciever and just old and wore out. It could still fire ball ammo but was a 'last ditch' rifle as it were . However it must have seen some further use and was wore out or damaged beyond repair and designated as a drill purpose rifle, hence it was condemed, and usually deactivated and used as a parade ground basher. The other marks I am not too sure of, but they sound like your regular inspection stampings, they are quite common on the Lee Enfields, the crown being the royal cypher, the '95' (in the case of the first one) being the inspection post and the 'K' perhaps being the letter of the inspectors first or last name. Hope that was of some little help to you and should you need to find out anything else or have more questions you know where to get me As for the topic of the bayonets, they were referred to as 'hooked quilions' that curved bit and as stated to catch your opponants bayonet in and hope to throw him. From about 1914 onwards the quillion was dropped as it was found that it was a nuisance and kept snagging on the webbing equipment and such. The p-07 bayonets produced pre 1914 simply had there quillions cut off. Hence they are extremely rare and even harder to buy! , so....enter the fakers, tho oknock these things together, knowing the demand amoung collectors and hoping to make a sale. Also, just to add to the history of the Lee Enfield given at the start of the thread, as of late there have been SMLE's chambered in .303 turning up in the US after having been exported there, these are made by Ishapore (India) and have manufacture dates in the 1980's! The latest so far being 1988!! This is a manufacture year, not a refurb year! Pretty amazing that this historic rifle was still being made (and for all we know still being made!) up to recent times. But as Ishapore is still a goverment arms plant its naturally tight lipped about what its producing these days (more No1's??) CroppyBoy1798