Gold Party Pin Guy

Here's a real front and back. Much smoother details, including the leaves. You can read more here:

http://pages.interlog.com/~sjl/GPB/genuinelarge.html

Well, maybe Nick is right. I called a fellow brother and he says there is a Preceptors' Order in the UK and they often have crowns on the insignia-being royally appointed and all, so who knows? Preceptors are past Masters and its' an invitation-only society. i suspect it's function is to drink and play golf, as for so many other fine fraternal orders provide a rubric.

It is the mantle and neck cross of the SMOTJ / OSMTH - The Sovereign Military Order of the Order of Jerusalem, also known as the Knights Templar. Not to be confused with the Masonic Templars, the SMOTH was a refounded Knights Templar from 1804 in France and now primarily based in the USA with international membership of about 5000. I am one myself. The Lorainne cross is mostly used by their American knights. Europeans use the cross pattee or Maltese cross. See: http://www.osmth.org/

Interesting - at first glance it certainly seems like Gen. Maurice Etienne Gérard is wearing the St Joachim star under his Legion of Honour, and got very excited. I tracked down a close up and it sadly is not.

Many thanks,

Stephen

Hello

Sorry, I'm unable to find again the reference to Baron Thierry, not noticed in the ''Annales Impériales'' or ''Royales'' ; nor in the files Xq49/50/51 in the Archives of the French army.

I have this poor reference to general de Fernig in Google books :

http://books.google.fr/books?id=LPVAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA321&dq=ordre+%C3%A9questre+de+saint+Joaqim&hl=fr&ei=1G5-TM2FKJONOOeX2YIE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Regards

Cuss

Hi Cuss,

Many thanks again. I found this portrait of Fernig (and bought it for my collection). You can see his St Joachim order off the bottom right of the page.

Now to track down Thierry.

Thanks,

Stephen

Hello

An old topic, may be dead since 2007 ...

But I have these two gentlemen's names, awarded with St Joachim order :

Comte Jean Louis Joseph de FERNIG, rank of colonel during the 1st empire, awarded "Grand croix", September 20^th 1807 ;

And :

Baron THIERRY, lieutenant général, retired, (with a note on him before 1846).

Regards

Cuss

Not dead - just forgotten by all but you and me!

Many, many thanks. I collect images of the St Joachim in wear, and am always looking for new leads. Can I ask where you found this information?

The "1933" badge is a fake as well. The Frauenschaft badge is original.

You're too kind. I have spent a lot of time staring at these badges, both good and bad. They are getting better at some of them, so I don't like to help out the fakers too much on what they are doing wrong. And I'm learning too every day.

The better photo of the large Deschler confirms it is original. See the little indentation in the silver border above the "IA" in "SOZIALISTISCHE"? Only found on originals. Now you know most of my identifying secrets of genuine badges.

Stephan,

For the first time I am in disagreement with your opinion.

I am not content with the 24mm badge and I'm not absolutely comfortable with the 30mm badge considering the photo being offered.

Best regards,

John

Hi John,

I don't worry about being disagreed with, except when it is by you.

I'll explain a couple of things I like and am happy to discuss. The Fuess badge has the thin letters under the red of a real Fuess (the "I" is like a spike, and the "H" has sharp feet. The "P" has a square top). No fake I have seen has reproduced these - yet. The top right laurel leaf of the wreath has a large lobe to the bottom. There is no sign of lines over the leaves themselves and the base metal is exactly what I'd expect to see under the gilding with wear.

On the pinplate, the maker name and wording is stamped off-centre - a feature of originals - and the "C" in Munchen is rounder than it is tall.

On the large badge, I think the front is the victim of a poor scan, but the letters and wreath look right. The "T" in "SOZIALISTISCHE" looks like a rock-hammer (a slightly deformed top), as it should on originals.

On the back, the pinplate has a slightly uneven bottom edge, as it should be. All fakes I have seen have a smooth and straight bottom edge. I don't like pointing all this out, as some of these are not well known ways of detecting the fakes.

I have never seen fakes that have got all these things right, so that is why I think these are fine.

Here are the new pictures. What about the out-of-place "7" ?

Not to worry - everything else is as it should be. No fake has managed to reproduce all these subtle correct features - yet. The numbers on this one were impressed individually instead of as a group, as was occasionally the case.

John,

Here are the scans you requested. Is everything as it should be?

Stan

Nothing wrong with that little Fuess. Pinplate and wreath are as they should be, and lettering on the front is right. No problems with it.

Indeed - both appear to be modern fakes. The sunken enamel, poor swastika and "fishy" blue glimmer to the enamel give them away. Back details of the gold one are particularly bad. The grind marks to the metal rings show poor finishing.

I like the looks of the Kinderschar as well. The idea they shouldn't be RZM'd comes from Cone's dating of the organization as pre-1935. If it continued past then, an RZM mark is indeed possible as this was a division of the NSF.

Here is the back side

Also a fake - poor enamel, bad shape to the letters and leaves, and the pinplate on originals has an uneven bottom edge.

I've posted in another forum, but I'll post again here. Yours looks like a poor cast copy - the head is pretty ugly.

Here is mine....

And a 4th pattern Kreis leader. The flash makes it look more glittery than in person.

And a "group" shot, along with some related (and unrelated) badges.

I too like these badges. Here are a few of my leader badges.

My little Thuringen stickpin mini - marked 0800 silver on the back.

Here is my Autobahn officials / employee stickpin.

Hi Robert,

No cleaning by me - all natural patina and wear. I like the little fleck of extra red enamel on the back. I think it gives it character.

Here's a shot I like to show with the relative sizes (standard 24mm badge at the top).

Here's one of my minis - I love these little guys.

Best tell-tale sign of a fake Mutter is a thick white border and non-pointy ends to the rays of the starbursts.

I'm kicking myself - I had a full copy of the official newspaper of the NSDStB at one time full of photos, and it has disappeared. I'll go looking in all my boxes, but it hasn't been seen in quite a while. If it shows up I'll scan some of the photos.

The cover I remember had a large photo of a line of older university students in brown shirt and black pants with NSDStB armbands, the belt with buckle and member pin on the (black?) tie.