johnnymac

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum. I'll explain the problems I see, but first I would agree with Rob's characterisation of the 'crimp brooch and wrap brooch". However, my issues are the clasp and planchet. Both are very old and would not have been placed on a late issue medal. By the 90's this type planchet had already been replaced by two different manufacturers with two slightly different type suspensions. The clasps also would have been a push pin type. I do not use the use word re-issue when it comes to the US Victory medal, I use late issue; Here's why, the US Government was continuously issuing this medal into the 21st century. This below is from my book: Late Issue - With depletion or shortage of existing supply of the original medal, such a medal may be a slightly different manifestation of the original due to the use of different manufacturers and/or the availability of the original dies and hubs. It is the sanctioned replacement for the original issued medal. Re-issue - is an original issue medal which has been re-issued at a later date for a different event without any changes to the medal’s overall design. A good example is the U.S. National Defense Service Medal, first issued in 1950-1954 for the Korean War and re-issued again in 1961-1974 during the Vietnam War. This medal continued to be re-issued for at least three different campaigns or events after 1974. Your medal is a re-ribbon medal. My book is sold only on Amazon.com or UK

To those who purchased my book, "WORLD WAR I, VICTORY MEDALS" I want to thanks you, as I have just reached 400 copies sold to date. I have been asked to do this book in a Kindle. Some collectors said that they then can carry the book when attending shows. If you are interested in seeing a kindle printing, please send me a PM here at GMIC massaging. Please do not full up the posting area. Another question is why no hard cover? Simply put, it was the cost to you and me, as I would have had to pre-purchase 1500 copies with me having a very limited way of reaching the world market and I would have eaten a lot of books at $$$, my cost per copy. Thanks you, Jim

Hi Rob I think you are asking about my book and not Bill's book, am I correct? The place of origin or the earliest history of this medal is unknown. Without the made in France stamp on the stirrup it would have been a total mystery. Here a closer view of the medal, I hope this helps. Regards, Jim

Good Show Bill, This is the best photo you have submitted so far. I hope one or two more of this type marking are posted. The repro type-2, I have, is marked MADE IN FRANCE. I can now add a manufacturers name to this medal in my book's new expanded edition. Rob said he had several of these medals back in post #26 so I am sure he will post something. Regards, Jim

Bill, You are right it could be a worn punch, but I feel the other readers , other than you, me and Rob who own one of this type medal could help us all get to finish line by posting their markings. Look back at GMIC past posting I found these by Rob and hopefully he will post the marking on his medals to compare to yours. Rob: 02 October 2009 (#8 US) - This particular specimen has both the word 'BRONZE' as well as an unidentified triangle hallmark on the rim. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-03749700-1424779666.jpg Rob's medal, (in my book this medal is listed as the repro type-2) Rob: 24 November 2009 (#26 US) - I have a few of the French produced U.S. vic reproductions and they have a variety of markings including: * no edge markings. - This medal may have had the India ink printing "MADE IN FRANCE" just rubbed off. * triangle hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. - Bill's medal in question? In my book this medal would be listed as a repro type-2. (see below, it is identical to the repro type-2 in my book). * square hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. - In my book, I listed this medal as a M. Delande repro type-3. with their known bee in the square hallmark. * 'MADE IN FRANCE', large capitals, on the edge. - In my book this medal is a repro type-2. (see above - without the export stamp these two medals are identical right down to the eleven rays surrounding the head.) * 'MADE IN FRANCE', in very small capitals on the edge. ? http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-08788100-1424779690.jpg Rob's medal, (in my book this medal is listed as the repro type-2) Regards, Jim

Bill, To me your triangle is not as sharp as any of the four posted. As to the second one you can clearly see the letters A,B, Star and the circle (wheel) at the bottom. The photo below shows a 1977 article in the OMSA and it mentions medals with " France" or "Made in France" and "some may have the word Bronze" on the rim. Also on the bottom photo is of the rim with Made in France and the word bronze. Regards, Jim

See below

Good morning Bill, Here a little background on the imported U.S. Victory Medals - All of the imported U.S. Victory medal came marked and stamped: FRANCE or MADE IN FRANCE, and some with the manufacture's own hallmark stamp as is yours, and some also being marked by India inked with MAKE IN FRANCE. On some of the FRANCE or MADE IN France marked medals, you may also find the word BRONZE. I still find it hard to envision what you and Rob see as the hallmark of Arthus-Bertrand even after you rotated the mark. I am sure there are other members who will have a clearer example of this medal and the maker's mark and hopefully they will post it. Here are a few more examples of the marks of Arthus-Bertrand and you can see how very clear they are, and how the triangle is shaped. Regards, Jim

Bill & Rob, The photo below was taken from the screen of my PC's monitor showing this marking of Arthus-Bertrand as shown on the web. I posted two different sizes of the marking to help illustrate it. Also in my previous posting #497 which shows the U.S. reproduction type-2 along side of the U.S. reproduction type-3, I missed, and did not point out the major different between the two medals on obverse, that being the rays surrounding the head. Like yours, the reproduction type-2 has eleven rays, whereas the reproduction type-3 only has nine rays around the head. Regards to both, Jim http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-08865600-1424616699.jpg

Repro type 2 & 3 can be found both with a Made in France and without the stamp. Bill I truly can not tell from your photo, so check these out to see if any are close to yours I hope this helps?

Bill only the ones going out of the country were stamped Made.............

Good Morning Bill, I am posting two illustrations from my book, the U.S. Reproduction type-2 and U.S. Reproduction type-3. Looking at your posting, it has the same thick letters as the repro type-2 in my book. and not the type-3 you believe it could be. My medal as you can see is marked "Made in France" yours, in all probability was not an export. So the question then is who's the manufacturer? I can' t tell what initials are in the triangle but here is a possible name, Andrean Chobillon they used raised initials AC in a triangle, adding they did a lot of exporting of medals. The next illustration is a reproduction type-3. It has the M Delande stamp, the bee in the square, along with the word Bronze as shown in my book In a different format. My two examples side by side and when looking at the front seem to be identical. It's the lettering on the reverse which tells its own story. Regards, Jim WORLD WAR I, VICTORY MEDALS http://www.amazon.com/World-War-I-Victory-Medals/dp/1497514177/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409051843&sr=1-1&keywords=james+michels http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-I-Victory-Medals/dp/1497514177/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408708534&sr=8-1&keywords=james+michels+victory http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-96726100-1424447084.jpg

I don't care if we have seen it before it nice to see this section is not dead, GM1 thanks for the post. Bill thanks for the Ref #.

Easy, this is an original and it is the one most encountered. From what I can see, outside it's ribbon, it is an excellent find and in excellent condition. I also like the fact that it came with the extra hardware, (buckle and top pin ). Regards, Jim

I want to thank The Subchasers Archives for the their posting. I send to their site a setup of subchasers clasps Original. and fake. http://www.subchaser.org/michels-world-war-i-victory-medals click on clasps to enlarge.

Greeting Bill, As pointed out, it not unusual to see an unofficial with an overstrike, but for this small manufacturer it is seen more often. Mistakes were made on the second, third and forth (Laslo's 3A) of the unofficial medals. Clearly it tells the collectors there was no quality control or care to detail, and what this and the other small manufacturers made when out the door. To me, what is unusual, is I know that you know the reverse N was an unofficial type-2 , LOL Best, regards, Jim

Hi, This subject, the Cuban Victory medal, sat for four months without a peep being posted. Muckaroon1960 posted his medal and asked the question: is it a copy? Because of that question, eight members chimed in. Too much information and photos are never too much. After all, this is a chat site and this medal alone has more twists and turns than all the others medals out there. I belong to five other forums and the most you will see posted on them after the initial post is "wow"," nice find" and "thanks for posting it." Why? Because the other medals of the world only have a few variations for each award. They were not manufactured or copied on the level that each of the victory medals have been. This chatting on the Cuban, I hope, has open many other eyes to look at it much closer and see things we did not see before. Hopefully it will add interest to other Cuban medals to come to your way. The question was not was this medal an original or fake, however it was much more. Regards, Jim

I did a google search, I then clicked the images and saw this, so I do not know. Miniature could be right as I do not collect them Jim

(I had to post these two here) The fifth photo is the one Jean-Michel directed us to on ebay, he believes it is the same medal as the one Muckaroon1960 posted. As far as I can tell from the enlargement of that medal which J-M posted from ebay, there is no slanted line or flawed area, nor does this M look the same as the ones above. Photo number six photo is showing another of my original Cuban Victory medal, but I this time I posted it in full size to see if we could notice the slanted line and you can plainly see it shows even in this photo, as well as the double "M". I did my best to add interest to all by my photos. I'll end by quoting Ripley "Believe it or Not" Regards, Jim

Muckaroon1960, It is interesting how lighting can change an item's look so lets see what we have with these new photos. Thanks for the new photos. Do you think minor flaws would be transferred to a medal if you were making a copy of that medal? Myself I would think it would be very hard to put imperfections or flaws on a copy, this why I think the medal in question is good, but maybe just from another die set. In the first set of photos, the one on the left is the one you posted the first time, the other medal is the second or last one you just posted. Yet, I see differences in the two photos of your, just slight differences like the key handle in the left photo has dent at the top part of the "O" on the handle part of the key but it does not show up with the second photo. The second photo, I illustrate one of my original bronze Cuban victory medal's, I marked it with a slanted red line next to an area that show an imperfection or flaw which is slanted. In the third photo is another original one my Cuban medal's which is gilded, again the second medal is your medal, it has two red boxes on both medals illustrated, note that they both illustrations have the same flaw. Next check the "M" out in the second red box both have a ghost outline of a second "M", a double hit on both. I will add that there is a bump on the vertical line similar to the two on your line. The four photo has one of my original gilded Cuban's and your second posted medal, it also has two red boxes on both medals illustrated, note that they both illustrations have the same flaw. Next check the "M" out in the second red box both have a ghost outline of a second "M", a double hit on both. Bottom line, if this medal you posted is a copy its a very good copy.

I saw this on the WWW that's all I know about.

Adding this to the discussion" look at the letters in the word "GUERRA" see how they all look the same in size and shape in the first five, but not the six word, the one that Jean-Michel posted in #114 as a fake or repro. The "G" looks like a "6" and all the letters are thicker.

To add more to this discussion The first photo was posted by Tim B. the next two are my own medals and I he two more that are similar. the next photo shows color of both medal are very much the same and the one in the red background is missing the a small section of the post from what I can see. The bubbles could be poor workmanship or inspection or a die difference.

Hi Jean-Michel I see what you are saying about how much they look like the medal in question. But I feel these two were later copies of the first medal. From what I can see the name is not there on either medal as it is on the first medal. Also the quality is poor on the other two and I would not put them all in the same class as the one in question. Just looking that the palm tree you can see a major difference. So are these two other medals the same as the first medal, you decide. Thanks for the come back. Regards, Jim

Jean Michel Would you mine listing the shortcomings you think may make this medal copy or fake. Also just asking you, do have a photo example of the medal you are thinking of from ebay that you might be able to post? I am not sure so I have to ask, would you agree that in the photo I listed earlier next to the medal in question in post 111 is an issued and official Cuban victory medal? , Regard Jim