Netherlands Dutch medalbar with decorations from Benin and Thailand

[Herr General]

Gentleman, I have bought a Dutch medalbar with the following decorations:

Officer in the Order of Oranje-Nassau without swords
Mobilization cross 1914-1918
Officer in the Order of the Star of Benin
Officer in the Order of the Crown of Thailand

I will post a picture tomorrow. I have emailed the Chancellery of Thailand and Benin. I only got a reply from Thailand that they cannot give me information about recipients. I also wrote a letter to the Dutch Chancellery but I do not expect to receive information there.

I think that this was the bar of a diplomat. Does anyone have an idea how to trace this person? Or is it impossible? I do not now if there is information in France about decorations from Benin?

Edited January 24, 2013 by Nick

[Ed_Haynes]

The Black Star of Benin was a French colonial award and had little to do with Benin (as we know it today). I was pretty freely awarded by the French in WWI to allied officers, for things that had nothing to do with the French colonial project, and that is probably what we are seeing here. The Thai award is more rare, more interesting, and more puzzling.

[Herr General]

Thank you for that information, I think that this bar is of a civilian because the medals and decorations are hanging in a civilian way. Not in the Prussian style introduced in the Dutch army by Prince Hendrik van Mecklenburg-Schwerin. The Officer in the Order of Oranje-Nassau is also a civilian type. The Mobilization cross 1914-1918 was probably earned during his mobilization, because the lack of Long service medals I think that he left the army after his mobilization. If he was 18/20 when he was mobilized that he would have earned the other decorations between 1918 and 1940..

Could a civilian receive the Order of the Star of Benin? And was it only awarded during WWI?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am completely new at this.

[Great Dane]

Yes, a civilian could certainly be awarded the Black Star of Benin. As Ed Haynes points out it rarely had anything to do with Benin, but was used as a sort of 'lesser degree' decoration, i.e. used to award those who did not qualify for, say, a Legion d'Honneur.

In the big French 'clean up' in 1963 a lot of decorations were merged into the National Order of Merit. The Black Star of Benin was one of them.

/Mike

[Herr General]

Thank you Mike for the information on the Black Star of Benin. Is it possible to get information about recipients in France? I think that the combination of awards is unique but I can not think of a way to trace this person.

[Herr General]

I have just send a letter to the Chancellery of France with a request for information....

[Great Dane]

Good luck with it

However it is my experience that even if a country has lists of recipients of a specific order, they rarely include foreigners. Too much work I guess, if the lists are compiled based on feedback from the recipients.

You might be lucky with a request directly to the Chancellery though...

/Mike

Edited August 11, 2006 by Great Dane

[Herr General]

Even if I get lucky I will need two lists to find this person...

[Herr General]

Here's a picture,

[Jacky]

Nice one!!

It was sold recently on "Marktplaats"....

Good luck with your research, I'm wondering whether it will be researchable...

Anyway again good luck and maybe will there happen a little wonder......

I have tried to contact and establish the Grand Chancellerie d'Legion d'Honneur to obtain information about a person and they denied almost every request, but then..... after a long time and many emails, I got my information

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Herr General]

Yes, I bought it on Marktplaats for a sharp price. Does anyone have an opinion about my idea about the owner and timeframe?

[g_deploige]

On the website from France Phaleristique you can find information about the Ordre de l'Etoile Noir du Benin

http://www.france-phaleristique.com/etoilenoir.htm

[Great Dane]

I have a couple of comments

Timeframe:

The Thai Order of the Crown is the post-1946 design (as far as I can tell).

The Black Star of Benin is obviously pre-1963.

So the timeframe for the group is quite wide - at least a period from 1918 to 1946.

Recipient:

I don't know about the diplomat theory - wouldn't a diplomat have many more orders? Of course a diplomat could have received a lot of Commander's Crosses and Grand Crosses, but then we're back to just guessing.

I have a group belonging to a department manager and member of the board of 'Alliance Francaise'. He received the Black Star of Benin order (Commander) but wasn't connected to the diplomatic service at all.

Actually the recipients of the Black Star of Benin and the Thai Order of the Crown were all kinds of people (that is, the kind of people who would normally be eligible for a national knight cross...).

/Mike

[ErikMuller]

Sorry for not answering your question by e-mail, but I'm a bit behind on answering the e-mails through my website.

My first idea would be a police commissioner or chief commissioner. The Dutch police was a uniformed service and thus elegible for the Mobilisation Cross 1914-1918. In 1910 a French state visit took place and - although I'm not certain about the exact date - the King of Siam visited the Dutch Queen about 1913-1915.

The Order of Orange-Nassau was quite common to be awarded to senior ranking Dutch police officers.

Cheers,

Erik

I have a couple of comments

Timeframe:

The Thai Order of the Crown is the post-1946 design (as far as I can tell).

The Black Star of Benin is obviously pre-1963.

So the timeframe for the group is quite wide - at least a period from 1918 to 1946.

Recipient:

I don't know about the diplomat theory - wouldn't a diplomat have many more orders? Of course a diplomat could have received a lot of Commander's Crosses and Grand Crosses, but then we're back to just guessing.

I have a group belonging to a department manager and member of the board of 'Alliance Francaise'. He received the Black Star of Benin order (Commander) but wasn't connected to the diplomatic service at all.

Actually the recipients of the Black Star of Benin and the Thai Order of the Crown were all kinds of people (that is, the kind of people who would normally be eligible for a national knight cross...).

/Mike

[Herr General]

Thank you Erik,

Is information about medals awarded during these two state visits available somewhere in an archive?

Sorry for not answering your question by e-mail, but I'm a bit behind on answering the e-mails through my website.

My first idea would be a police commissioner or chief commissioner. The Dutch police was a uniformed service and thus elegible for the Mobilisation Cross 1914-1918. In 1910 a French state visit took place and - although I'm not certain about the exact date - the King of Siam visited the Dutch Queen about 1913-1915.

The Order of Orange-Nassau was quite common to be awarded to senior ranking Dutch police officers.

Cheers,

Erik

[ErikMuller]

Thank you Erik,

Is information about medals awarded during these two state visits available somewhere in an archive?

Well, I have an incomplete list of the French visit (sorry for those not reading Dutch, but this is a part from an newspaper article):

De President der Fransche Republiek heeft benoemd:

In de orde van het Legioen van Eer:

tot grootkruis: Z.K.H. Prins Hendrik der Nederlanden; de ministers Th. Heemskerk en De Marees van Swinderen;

tot groot-officieren: de ministers Wentholt, Kolkman, E.R.H. Regout, De Waal Melefijt, Talma, Colijn, M.L.H.W. Regout, vice-admiraal jhr. J.A. R?ell, graaf van Bylandt, baron Van Pallandt van Neerijnen, baron C.A. Bentinck, jhr. S.M.S. de Ranitz, mr. G. van Tienhoven, commissaris der Koningin in Noord-Holland, luit.-generaal W.A.T. de Meester;

tot commandeur: baron De Vos van Steenwijk, jhr. J.A. van Kretschmar van Veen, schout-bij-nacht C.F. Tydeman, baron G.Ch. Snouckaert van Schauburg, jhr. W.J.P. van den Bosch, jhr. V.E.A. Boreel, jhr.mr.dr. A. R?ell, baron J.C. Baud, mr. T.G.H. Reitsma, Hendrik Kemper, S. Hannema, S.P. van Eeghen, schout-bij-nacht J.W.A.F. van Maren Bentz van den Berg, generaal-majoor A.N.J. Fabius, baron E.C. Sweerts de Landas Wyborgh, baron Van Asbeck, legatieraad te Parijs;

tot officier: kolonel P.C.J. Noorduyn, jhr. C.C.Th. Six, kolonel graaf R.J. Schimmelpenninck, jhr. B.W.F. van Riemsdijk, luit.-kolonel H.L. van Oordt, B.H. de Waal, jhr. J.C. Rensdorp, jhr. J.B.D. van den Berch van Heemstede, L.W.J.K. Thompson, kapt. ter zee J.F. Hosang, G.L. Goedhart, W. Houwing, J. Alberda, de kapitein-luitenant ter zee J.J. Rambonnet, kapt. ter zee Zegers Rijser, J.C. Janson, L. Serrurier, graaf S.B.W. van Limburg Stirum, baron J.W.J. Taets van Amerongen, jhr. F.M.L. van Geen, kapt.-luit. ter zee jhr. C. Hooft Graafland, majoor jhr. C.L. van Suchtelen van de Haare, Hendrik Woertman, kolonel J.H. van der Burg, kolonel F.H. Donner, kolonel G.A. van Haeften, J.G. van Blom;

tot ridder: baron H.E. van Asbeck, kapitein graaf J.H.F. du Monceau, J. Burgy, jhr. F. Michiels van Verduynen, C.J.R. v. Aalst, prof. Salverda de Grave, C.A. Hofman, H.S. Hordijk, C.L.J. Ketting, kapitein T.F.J. Muller Massis, A.W. Bos, luitenant ter zee J.F. Canters, A.J. Breda Kleynenberg, J.L. von Luschen, J.H. Tours, W.B.K. Boom, H.J. Versteeg, P.W. Sutorius, J.Th. Mouton, kapitein J.P.A. Termaat, luitenants te zee J.C. van Iterson, A. Tenbroeke Hoestra, jhr. S. de Ranitz, A.G.A. Everts, N. van Wingen, E. Cool, A. Cerf, G.W. Vreede, J.M.H. van Lelieveld, de kapiteins jhr. R.H.S.G. Six, W.H.C. Boellaard, G.P. Goffin van der Star, J.M. Mazel, H.A. Mos, F.C.A. van der Minne, luitenant ter zee C.L. Schepp;

In de orde van de Zwarte Ster:

tot commandeur: M.F. Stokvis;

tot officier: Dinant de Ridder, F.G.C.J. Fundter de Beauch?ne, A. Kummer, A.F. Dietz, J.A. Willems, F. Logemaat;

tot chevalier: J.A. Smalt, E. van Broekhuizen Dietz, J. Aaltz Sterkenburg, P.J. Vos, A. de Groot;

tot commandeur Du Cambodge: baron Sirtema van Grovestins;

tot officier de l?Instruction Publique: dr. De Hartogh, H.G. van Buseck, H.B. van Rhijn, S. Vas Dias, J. Asscher, D.S. van Heyningen, Georges Rooseboom, Benjamin de Brueys Tack, W.A. Poeschmann, F.A. de Klerck, luitenant A. Ruys, jhr. H.A. van Reygersberg Versluys, baron J.J.G. van Voorst tot Voorst, A. van Hoboken van Hoedekenskerke, H.C.J. Gritters, luitenant ter zee C. Ruehl, A.A. Chouillet, J. Funke, M. Bouwman;

tot officier d?Acad?mie: H. Tersteeg, IJ.B. Santen, F.H. Gerritsen, J.M.C. Ligtermoet, E.Th.F. Voorhout, Yves Zacharie Dubosq.

Source: Nieuwe Rotterdamsche Courant, woensdag 6 juli 1911, Ochtendblad B.

[Herr General]

Thanks, Great info. So it is possible that it is one of these persons..

Dinant de Ridder, F.G.C.J. Fundter de Beauch?ne, A. Kummer, A.F. Dietz, J.A. Willems, F. Logemaat;

I'm looking on google to find info about the state visit from thailand.

[ErikMuller]

F.G.C.J. F?ndter de Beauch?ne was a police commissioner with the Amsterdam Police. He was awarded the following medals:

Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Commemorative Cross 1898 Amsterdam Police (1899)

Knight 4th class of the Order of the Red Eagle of Prussia

Officer in the Order of the Black Star of Benin

So you can strike him of the list.

To give another example of a senior police officers list of awards, hereby the list of awards to Chief Commissioner A.J. Marcusse, also of the Amsterdam Police:

Knight in the Order of the Netherlands Lion (1928)

Officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Commemorative Cross 1898 Amsterdam Police (1899)

Commemorative Cross 1923 in gold Amsterdam Police (1924)

Commander in the Order of Isabel the Catholic of Spain

Officer in the Order of the Sacred Treasure of Japan

Knight 1st class of the Order of Wasa of Sweden

Knight 1st class of the Order of Saint Olav of Norway

Knight in the Legion of Honour of France

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Belgium

Decoration 2nd class of the German Red Cross

Decoration 2nd class with War Decoration of the Austrian Red Cross

Or, the awards to C. van Asperen, Inspector:

Officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Commemorative Cross 1898 Amsterdam Police (1899)

Knight in the Order of the Crown

Decoration 2nd class of the German Red Cross (1925)

Cross of Merit of the Hungarian Red Cross (1925)

And this are just senior officers of the Amsterdam Police, but looking at the newspapers from that time period a lot of other big city police officers received foreign decorations.

[Herr General]

Very interesting information about these police officers. Thanks for posting this. where police officers from places like Den Haag and Rotterdam also so heavily awarded with foreign awards?

I can not find any info about the visit from Siam. I can't even find a correct date. I'm now trying to find newspaper archives from that time periode.

Edited September 2, 2006 by Herr General

[ErikMuller]

Very interesting information about these police officers. Thanks for posting this. where police officers from places like Den Haag and Rotterdam also so heavily awarded with foreign awards?

I can not find any info about the visit from Siam. I can't even find a correct date. I'm now trying to find newspaper archives from that time periode.

Yes, other big city officers are also heavily decorated with foreign awards.

For example, The Hague:

Inspector F. Lori?:

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Belgium

Knight in the Order of Leopold II of Belgium

Decoration 2nd class of the German Red Cross

Decoration 2nd class of the Austrian Red Cross

Decoration of the Hungarian Red Cross

Commissioner Th.H.J. Besseling

Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Knight in the Order of the Sacred Treasure of Japan

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Belgian

IJmuiden

Commissioner D. de Ridder

Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Gold Cross for Faithful Police Service of the General Netherlands Police Union

Knight 3rd class in the Order of the Crown of Prussia

Officer in the Order of the Black Star of Benin

Vlissingen

Commissioner A.O.F.W.C. Gasinjet

Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Belgium

Member of the Order of the British Empire

Medal of Gratitude in silver of France

Amsterdam

Commissioner K.H. Broekhoff

Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Marching Cross (5x)

Commemorative Cross 1923 in bronze Amsterdam Police

Commemorative Cross 1938 in gold Amsterdam Police

Police Swimming Proficiency Medal in silver Amsterdam Police

Commander in the Order of the German Eagle

Commander in the Order of Saint Sava of Serbia

Commander in the Order of the Crown of Rumania

Officer in the Order of Leopold II of Belgium

Officer of Instruction Publique of France

Decoration 2nd class of the German Red Cross

Decoration 2nd class of the Austrian Red Cross

But still a record holding police officer is:

Chief Commissioner A.H. Sirks of Rotterdam:

Officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau

Commemorative Medal Honour Guard 1933

Bronze Table Medal for the Inauguration of Queen Wilhelmina, 1898

Commander in the Order of the Danebrog of Denmark

Commander in the Order of the Crown of Rumania

Commander in the Order of the Phoenix of Greece

Officer in the Order of the Crown of Belgium

Officer in the Order of the Sacred Treasure of Japan

Officer in the Order of the British Empire

Knight 1st class in the Order of Saint Olav of Norway

Knight 1st class in the Order of Wasa of Sweden

Knight in the Legion of Honour of France

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Italy

Officer d'Academy of France

Decoration 2nd class of the Austrian Red Cross

Medal 2nd class of the Prussian Red Cross

Medal 3rd class of the Prussian Red Cross

[Herr General]

Thank you Erik for that information.

I found a number of recipients of the Order of the Crown of Siam and of the Black star of Benin in a newspaper archive. But wasn't able to find a match.

http://kranten.kb.nl/index2.html

Do you have any idea how to procede? Do you know any other newspaper archives?

[ErikMuller]

Thank you Erik for that information.

I found a number of recipients of the Order of the Crown of Siam and of the Black star of Benin in a newspaper archive. But wasn't able to find a match.

http://kranten.kb.nl/index2.html

Do you have any idea how to procede? Do you know any other newspaper archives?

I've been through those pages to, but couldn't find a positive match either. There's also www.archiefeemland.nl, but haven't found a match there either. At the end of the year the KB will add about 20.000 more newspapers online.

I've also scanned through my police officer's yearbooks but no results there either. Unfortunately my earliest edition is 1933, so there would probably be more chance of succes - if this guy is a police officer - in the earlier editons.

[peter monahan]

No help at all researching this group but on a related note, I once saw/held a group with 7 different enamelled awards from all over Europe and Asia. Turned out the recipient was the senior stationmaster at the London station where all the visiting "nobs" got off the train on state visits. Fabulous looking group to a (senior?) civil servant. Maybe your guy was in the police, as suggested, or protocol dept. of the civil service or even a translator or something like that. Very interesting!

Peter

[Herr General]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Erik thinks that it is a police officer because of the second medal ( Mobilisation Cross 1914-1918 ) . This medal was available to Police also. The other decorations are civil, like you would expect from an Police officer.

[Herr General]

Erik,

I was reading the newspapers in the archive and found out that the decoration was also called Black star of France. Zwarte ster van Frankrijk. I found one Police officer with a Officers class of the Star of Benin.

H. Dijkstra

Inspecteur van de Politie 1e klas te Amsterdam

Het Vaderland woensdag 22 Juni 1938

Do you have more info on this man?