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As I I've heard here was someone who likes nice ribbon bars I'd like to show you a bar from my father's collection, which unfortunally has no name - yet.

As it was from the former G. Seymor collection and bought from Thies auction I think it has yet been identified ... :banger:

It's a nine place ribbon bar in big old style, with Iron Cross IInd class 1870, Baden Military Carl Friedrich order, a Baden Z?hringer with swords, both Prussian Red Eagle and Crown order without swords, the Prussian 1870 "Kriegsdenkm?nze", the Baden "Felddienstauszeichnung" with bars for 1866 and 1870-1871, followed by a Saxon Albrechts order and a Schwarzburg Ehrenkreuz, both without swords ...

I think (and hope) it is not really difficult, is it?

Avers:

Edited by saschaw
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Ah, at least I know that has found a good home now! :beer:

George TRIED to make a scan of that for me for the eventual second edition of my online ribbon bar article (a new AUTHORIZED version, not the one which has been stolen from me)... but he was TERRIBLE at scans and never got the hang of how to do it. THIS was as "good" as I was able to "improve" his scan to me :

[attachmentid=54476]

Unfortunately, once he got the "new technology" he didn't send me XEROXES any more, which I kept and scribbled on for my reference files.

We were both intrigued by this VERY non-regulation MKFVO cipher-- not officially authorized until 1917--and the freakish "Saxon style" EK mini device-- the earliest one we had ever seen!

George DID identify the bar...

but without my paper aides memoires, I cannot remember who it was:

the officer either died or retired in the late 1880s-- that much I can recall. So this bar dates from about 1883 or so, very roughly. He was NOT listed in the 1908/09 Orders Almanac, so had apparently died by then, if not actually in the 1880s.

The SCHWARZBURG Honor Cross will, I think, RE-identify him, since he was a Major in that Infantry Regiment I believe.

Anyone with Rank Lists circa 1882-1887 please look. It's a Red Eagle 4, Prussian XXV, and if my memory serves, a Saxon Albert Knight SECOND Class and a Schwarzburg Honor Cross 3rd Class. I am positive he was infantry. I don't remember what grade Z?hringen Lion X it was.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 5 weeks later...
  • 2 years later...

I have remembered him. It was as if George just spoke it in my ear all over again. :rolleyes:

You will name your firstborn son and heir after me, of course? :catjava:

back with scan-- seems I misremembered his DEATH date as RETIREMENT date. :rolleyes:

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CHRISTIAN

FRIEDRICH

HEINRICH

GOCKEL

EK2 1870:

The only rank date I have anything on was

Major 22 September 1877-- in 1879 5./ Baden Dragoner Regiment 22.

Out of all the many hundreds of groups I talked about with George over 30 years, apparently I misremembered. I think now (obviously, from the below) that Gockel must have RETIRED 1887-88 not died then. In any event, 1880s Ranglisten will narrow down when he got the Schwarzburg Honor Cross. With no EK oakleaves or 1897 Centenary medal your bar dates between that years and 1895.

And here he was, ALIVE and breathing in 1908--

The ODD transfer I remember was to TRAIN, not INFANTRY.

His CORRECT Saxon Albert Order-Knight 2nd here shows on old Rank Lists as "SA3a" because it was the pre-1876 design change model-- BUT he had the smaller Knight 2nd as we understand the class designation and as it appears in 1908. You'll have to sort out which Z?hringen Lion class he actually got since he is shown with "BZ3aX" in the 1879 Rangliste and "mE" to that in 1908-- along with the ERROR Voluntary Medical Care 1870/71 Cross. :speechless:

Free at last, Good God Almighty, free at LAST.

(One less thing off MY mind. :catjava: )

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Ah, finally. Thank you, Rick. Nice, very nice. And thanks to Mr. Seymour. My father loves anything from Train-Bataillon 14 as it's the very only unit in Durlach, where he has been born. ;)

However the BZ thing is odd. I though Hermann G?ring was the only one to "upgrate" his Lion. I cannot check at the moment but think Gockel got rather a 3aX "sE", as he's not wearing oaks to his bar...

(One less thing off MY mind. :catjava: )

And of mine...

:cheers:

Now thinking about the harder cases. :unsure:

PS:

still thinking about Gockel: he may have gotten a peace time Z?hringer 3aE up to 1908 and lists them both together, as if they were just one award - foolishly, but possible...

PPS:

What is "BdJM"? One of the about 100 "Erinnerungsmedaille f?r 1906"?

:speechless1:

Ah, born in 1836 he might have entered military service in 1854, what makes him "in service" in 1856, plus still alive in 1906.... nice... :D

Edited by saschaw
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Yup, so retired in 1886. I've always had "end of the 1880s" stuck in my mind about him-- that's when this ribbon bar dates to.

Now it is alllllllll up to Sascha to get his military records from the Baden War Archive and find out all the details and inconsistencies. Have you got citations for the 1870-71 MKFVOs?

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Thanks Gentlemen, again a mystery solved. Hardy, do you yet know this one? I have not downloaded anything by know but actually we should get everything. Who knows how long this site will "be" - http://tarlith-history.livejournal.com/510...?thread=7182483

Have you got citations for the 1870-71 MKFVOs?

Citations? I don't even have a "pure 1870/71! list. Only F. Zelosko's "full" Karl Friedrich list, 1806 to 1918. That indeed may have his citation or something on his career...

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Thanks Gentlemen, again a mystery solved. Hardy, do you yet know this one? I have not downloaded anything by know but actually we should get everything. Who knows how long this site will "be" - http://tarlith-history.livejournal.com/510...?thread=7182483

Citations? I don't even have a "pure 1870/71! list. Only F. Zelosko's "full" Karl Friedrich list, 1806 to 1918. That indeed may have his citation or something on his career...

Danke, hab schon alles runtergeladen (Got it already) :cheers:

Hardy

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Zelosko's volume two (by the way, great books!) had something on him, however no "real" citation and it sounds there never was one. It is just a standard "in Anerkennung hervorragender Tapferkeit und ausgezeichneter Leistungen w?hrend des gegenw?rtigen Feldzugs".

:banger:

The only new, though quite interresting information is he died on November 23rd, 1915.

Edited by saschaw
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But I bet there is a regimental history covering 1870-71 and THERE will be found some details. :cheers:

We must get you to enter the Big Dark Damp Underground Archives and do Mighty Battle with the Giant Shelf Spiders. Only when you are covered with scars and, OK, drool a little in public, will you be a Research Gnome. That, the squint and hunch are how we recognize each other in public. :catjava: :cheeky:

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  • 11 years later...

More than ten years later, I think the only thing that's missing here might be a nice portraiture?! Gentlemen, please welcome Oberstleutnant Christian Gockel, naturally or unfortunately with his full size medal bar, and not just the ribbons. The picture is taken from Henning Volle's 2019 Die Orden und tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Großherzogtums und der Republik Baden, where it's used to show medals bars in wear and their precedences.

gockel.jpeg

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