My first Tamara

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, only the Legion unit badge and "1st Class" pieces have sides and letters/numbers high enough to be enamelled. The "2nd" and "3rd class" award disks are too FLAT to allow for enamel being filled in without spilling over the motto ring.

[Ed_Haynes]

And -- and, Rick, please correct me if I am wrong -- any real talk of "1st class", 2nd class", or "3rd class" is no more than marketing spin, unrooted in history?

[Guest Rick Research]

Right. No classes. No statutes beyond the December 1918 decree which gave NO mention of design.

But there are varieties which have to be differentiated:

TWO versions given to the Georgian Legion defectors, their German NCO and officer cadre, and such kiss-up bestowals as were theoretically presented to the Kaiser, Hindenburg and so on (not that any of THEM ever wore same)... and which have no examples to show (though I have a xerox of the Legion award document from 30 years ago, the only such I ever heard of being sold, kindly made for me by Jack Sweetman in Florida) the Legion version of which was made by K?st;

THREE versions marketed by Meybauer as "classes" for retail vanity (the "standard" versions most usually encountered)

ONE version with the black and red Legion lacquer replaced by blue enamel in mock of Meybauer's "1st Class" by K?st (a marketing swan song, perhaps)

and unknown numbers of varieties of possibly unique Super Ego vanity pieces manufactured in real silver, at least one version Meybauer marked (as NONE of the above German 1917-1919 made stars were), and the rest generally regarded as French in origin and circa 1920s-- possibly "gubamint in exile" paper awards. I have seen ONE scribbled (literally) "award document" made to a French 1920s recipient-- one suspects in lieu of that week's rent or in payment of a bar tab.

It is literally impossible to credit ANY version of the "Order" with being regulation. At least K?st's wartime unit badges were made to specific requirements-- of the then-"Government in Exile"

which had ZERO to do with the Menshevik government of Georgia 1917-21.

As I always say, this is without doubt the Single Most Bizarre Award in human history.

I might also add that the late Dr. Klietmann of subsequnetly spotted repute's assertion that GODET ever made ANY Tamaras is unsubstantiated by anything but his pamphlet of 1964, and I suspect was self-interest as Dark Side intentions surfaced and retail profit in fakery advanced before the simple honest toil of research. IF Godet ever made any, they would probably have been of the one-off Super Ego jewelry type for REALLY bad "male compensation" customers.

I have also never seen ANY evidence that either the disappearing K?st or Meybauer (who moved into more uspcale wares as the 1920s passed) maintained large stocks of these, or made restrikes or replacements after the homecoming surge of 1919. Presumably anyone who lost or damaged their self-purchased awards in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s or later was simply SOL on getting another unless they could obtain one from a dead fellow Georgian campaigner's estate. There are NO "variations" or differences beyond hand finishing of the cast star bodies and hand finished and applied pins and hinges etc etc-- all of which suggests to me a SINGLE marketing push in mid-1919.

Someone-- perhaps Hieronymussen ???-- then-famously asserted in the early 1970s that "most of these encountered are fakes" in a Once Published Never Undone gaffe that has unfairly affected these ever since. He was, perhaps, considering that the Super Ego pieces were illegitimate. Certainly the German 1919 pieces (I am "seeing" one of them as that book's illustration, but getting fuzzy in my old age) are not to be so dismisssed. These have never shown up beyond the trickle that one would expect for under 2,000 awarded to come onto the market over many long decades.

IF there are any fakes I will expect them to be produced NOW for the suddenly wealthy "home" Russian market--

despite the fact that no GEORGIAN ever received one of these!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob]

Side by side. Significantly different... also facial expression for instance. Surely not made from same cast?

 

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by speedytop

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, side by side I am fairly sure that your SECOND one (on the left in the side by side) is a Meybauer "1st Class" (I have never seen rays so shiny-- possibly it was replated when the center was reattached) and the right hand one is, as my first instinct was, a K?st "retail post-Legion" version.

Problem is, I have not handled a K?st in 25 years, nor had images as clear as yours since.

Notice the way the points on the right-hand (provisionally "1919 K?st") Tamara's crown tilt outward at the top? Whereas Meybauer's "crown" goes straight up.

Because the mottocircle and background for Meybauer's "1st Class" required more depth than the flatter o"hubcap" center used on his "2nd class" and "3rd class" versions, HE had two dies for that, and the lustful Queen/Saint is therefore different in the Meybauer enamelled/plain versions.

But TRY and match up your color scan to Klietmann's 1964 Tamara pamphlet scan!!!!

And in November 1981 when Jack Sweetman sent me an all-we-had-then-was-black-and-white xerox of the huge scroll-like multi-colored Legion Tamara document, I di not ask him for a photocopy of the accompanying BADGE!!!

In the 25 years since, I have never seen nor heard of the only known Legion set coming back onto the market.

Oh where or where did Leutnant Oelssner's set GO???????????

[Guest Rick Research]

Hey Bob! Look what I just found in my files! I don't have the 1964 Klietmann monograph, only copies (and for yours from an original) but I actually DO have his first version, original Orders and Medals Society of America September-October 1957 "The Badge and the Order of Queen Tamara" (pages 11-15).

Here is page 14, showing what appears to be a Legion badge, dark (black?) background but no visible enamel in the motto ring-- a type he does not mention in his 1-2-3 descriptions.

[attachmentid=61278]

? 1957 Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann (author), W. P. Huber (translator), OMSA (publisher)

I had actually forgotten I even HAD this, it has been so long since anybody but me cared.

[Guest Rick Research]

And page 15, ? 1957 Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann (author), W. P. Huber (translator), OMSA (publisher) to luist what was then "in the literature" on types. There is nothing else new or notable in this "practice version" for his 1964 paphlet.

 

But notice that THIS Unteroffizier, exactly like the one he used to illustrate a Legion member in the 1964 version, is wearing a "dark smudge" after the Iron Cross 2nd Class--

 

[attachmentid=61279]

 

 

a "shadow" which can ONLY be the red and black laddered ribbon subssequently used for the "Order," and which shows as a solid dark blob because of contrast "issues" with old photographic processes between dark brick red and black-- let alone scans of 49 year old printed photos!!!!

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by speedytop

[Bob]

I am mixed between & on the one hand and on the other

Perhaps what I need is

[Bob]

Rick - look at the bizarre award thread. But sit down before you look...

[Bob]

Thought I had placed an insanely high and surely winning bid for a miniature group (incl. Tamara) on zeige... turns out somebody else was more insane... 3x more in fact!

1.100 Euro

What a lovely Tamara...

[saschaw]

I have no idea how expensive this was, as I have no idea what the Russian stuff usually would go for, but...

Are you sure this were minis? Zeige did not write it and I have doubts.

Rather a reduced (or full) size "Spangenstück" for a medal bar?

And no, I didn't buy it either...

[Bob]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-679-0-85839000-1360442223.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-679-0-90061000-1360442224.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-679-0-60833000-1360442225.jpg

Nothing like breathing (a bit) of life into an old thread - just in: Meybauer '2nd class'

Still haven't been able to get a ribbon bar, but the hunt is half the fun!

[dedehansen]

Hello Gents,,

I think this was missing untill now ?!

[rujab]

Klasse Urkunde.

Gruss

Rudi

[dond]

I agree.

[Bob]

Here's a similar one:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/3763-order-of-queen-tamar/?hl=tamara#entry35728

And here as well:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/1032-the-worlds-most-bizarre-award-a-new-chapter/page-4

I've also once seen a much more elaborate document with very nice graphics. Unfortunately I underbid.

Can anybody read the names of the two people who signed the document?

[dedehansen]

@ Don and Rudi,

I am very please to hear that You like the documente too

Andreas

[LeoLinz]

Dear Gentlemen,

this is my first post on GMIC. It's a great source for every collector with a lot of specialists.

I've read the articles about the "Tamara" and in all the discussions about the color, enmael, etc. I didn't find a hint for the style of the rays.

Nearly all photos on GMIC show stars with round tips (like small spoons).

Do all original Stars have round tips and other star with other styled tips are fake? Or is this a hint for a special manufacturer?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/370795189096?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_2007wt_1172

For example, a "Tamara" on german ebay.

Cheers,

Leo

[922F]

Vendor 'sold' the Tamara piece Leo cites above, or a VERY similar one, at least 3 times before at prices ranging from 261.01 [German eBay item 271159984936] to 607 [item 270132684631] euros!! Looking at the other fine original items on offer from this source I'd be very skeptical at best..... Hurry now, it's already up to 334 euros this time!!!

Or for a $1500 opportunity for this RARE VARIETY------U.S. via Israeli eBay item 281094155936........coincidence, fluke or just GOOD LUCK?

April 17 update--seems a couple of bidders have backed out....wonder why??? Could it be they have suspicions that the fakers are at work----at least, not the same 'quality' as Chinese Striped Tigers et. al.!!

Edited April 17, 2013 by 922F

[speedytop]

Hi,

first, no classes exist, only different qualities.

Second, "ichverkaufealles12345" is a well known seller on ebay; he had several names, and not only in Aachen!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5600352

http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/showthread.php?p=2118761

Third, he don't write, that it is an original. He only write, that the original piece looks better than on the photo (Das Original ist besser als das Foto !!!).

And he don't guarantee the originality: "Es handelt sich dabei also nie um eine Garantie auf Originalität, Echtheit ..." (it is never a guarantee on originality, authenticity...). It is always only "his opinion" (meiner Meinung nach).

Uwe

Edited April 16, 2013 by speedytop

[dond]

These fakes appeared recently and are not original.

[LeoLinz]

Does this mean, that original "Tamars" in every case have round tips? There are in no way "sharp" tiped stars?

Leo

[utopis]

Does this mean, that original "Tamars" in every case have round tips? There are in no way "sharp" tiped stars?

Leo

Yes, exactly. These fakes appeared some time ago at the market. The quality is not too bad but the design of the star is very different to the original ones. These type of fake also appears with red enamel to copy the early legion type. Weitze fell for it or at least he had one of these fakes for sale priced at 850€. I don't know if he sold it or found out that it was a fake and removed it from his site.

[LeoLinz]

Thank you for the info!

Leo

[LeoLinz]

I found a very interesting article from (in Austria) well known Jörg C. Steiner about the order.

http://www.ordenskunde.info/dtThamar.htm (whole article in is german)

With photos of the different types and (at least for me) new infos!

Have a nice weekend!