WNickel Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Hello, I can show you the bar of the Marinebeamten Lange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 ...and the Feuerwerker Menneking...one of my first bars, I love it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 LD1, HP3a, EH3a, AB3a should pop up. Not a military official--no 1897 Centenary Medal, so either a dR/dL officer with a day job, or a retired dR/dL officer in non-Prussian civil service.... I didn't think it was possible to identify the recipient. The SEHO is rather small which makes me believe the bar is 1860-70 and as you pointed out no 1897 Centenary. Thanks Rick in advance if you come across any further info on the bar. Possible to be Prussian, receiving a higher grade Crown & Red Eagle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 That's the time consuming bit. We generally hope for 1914 as latest possible, but that's already scratched off. Now it's work backwards--with XX years in, he has to appear SOMETIME. Please post the back side. I doubt the bar is that old, from the mounting. I'm working on the assumption that no 1870/71 (1897), no 1866... those XX years are AFTER 1871. That narrows it down for the hunt from 1872 to 1913. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Those are beyond amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 That's the time consuming bit. We generally hope for 1914 as latest possible, but that's already scratched off. Now it's work backwards--with XX years in, he has to appear SOMETIME. Please post the back side. I doubt the bar is that old, from the mounting. I'm working on the assumption that no 1870/71 (1897), no 1866... those XX years are AFTER 1871. That narrows it down for the hunt from 1872 to 1913. I hope the scan helps in determining the date of the bar. The SEHO has the earlier type type Lion between the arms. The later pieces will only have the paw reaching out to the cross and the Lion is thinner in design. I never took into consideration that the bar was put together at a much later date. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Don't forget--Orders were almost universally returned on the recipients' deaths, to be reissued if in good enough condition. We've seen Saxon and Baden and Bavarian Napoleonic era awards in 1914-18 groups. Assuming your guy was ALIVE when the Second Reich fell apart would explain why the bar still exists. (Or else his widow was very very naughty... or BOUGHT the awards to keep them intact.) Backings like on your bar seem to start coming in about late 1880s--before that they are just raw unfinished horrors. I'd say your bar will turn out to be 1890s+. Research Gnome nightmare: he did his XX Years time with nothing else, and got everything AFTERWARDS as an invisible "Kommerzienrat" or some such. Your three Orders are all for a Captain-equivalent in status, though absence of a Prussian award is odd for a trio of others states. We'll find him... eventually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Don't forget--Orders were almost universally returned on the recipients' deaths, to be reissued if in good enough condition. We've seen Saxon and Baden and Bavarian Napoleonic era awards in 1914-18 groups. Assuming your guy was ALIVE when the Second Reich fell apart would explain why the bar still exists. (Or else his widow was very very naughty... or BOUGHT the awards to keep them intact.) Backings like on your bar seem to start coming in about late 1880s--before that they are just raw unfinished horrors. I'd say your bar will turn out to be 1890s+. Research Gnome nightmare: he did his XX Years time with nothing else, and got everything AFTERWARDS as an invisible "Kommerzienrat" or some such. Your three Orders are all for a Captain-equivalent in status, though absence of a Prussian award is odd for a trio of others states. We'll find him... eventually! I appreciate you shedding some light when the bar was put together. I never considered the SEHO being recycled. After reading your thoughtful comments I did recall seeing a Napoleonic St. Henry on a bar where the other orders and medals were of a later period. I have seen many a fine bar on the forum from the late 1800's and onwards having ribbon in good to mint condition which was another reason why I had initially dated mine( frayed ) to an earlier period. If you ever decide to write a book on "Bars" I'll be the first on line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 My small contribution. Not so much a collector of bars but this way the only way to be certain of having a genuine Anhalt Bear. The old frayed soiled ribbons suggested it had not been tampered with. Unfortunately no I'd img065.jpg hi, i think he is it Brückner Richard Pr Fabrikbesitzer Calbe/Saale Anh AnhAdB 3a 00.00.1908 Brückner Richard Pr Vorsitzender Calbe/Saale Hess HssP 3a 03.06.1908 Brückner Richard Pr Fabrikbesitzer + H dRaD Calbe/Saale Pr PLwDA 1 OA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Thank you Werner-- you found him. For those of us who do not speak sui generis "Werner-computer" Brückner was born 30.05.1857 in Calbe a/S. Hptm dR aD with LD1 before 1908: received his AB3a in "1908"-- his HP3a 03.06.08-- and I can add the final conclusive piece of this puzzle-- Brückner's EH3a from Altenburg 31.08.12 as Kommerzienrat, Calbe a/S. While none of these awards by themselves were "rare," the COMBINATION was. Once again as a way of understanding that, think of picking lottery numebers... to get a winning combination. I can't tell in what unit Brückner was a reserve officer, back with no rank dates published (not that Rank Lists EVER had reserve officers' dates!) and no first names to sort out multiple 1880s Brückners. But you've got a winning 4-for-4 here Nickel/Lundström attribution. SOURCES: Deutscher ordens-Almanach 1908/09 (birth data and LD1) Anhalt HuS HB 1912 (AB3a... have failed to scribble occupation shown while retyping this) Hessen Ordensliste 1914 (HP3a) Unpublished "Master Roll" of the Saxe Ernestine House Order (which luckily I have from 1911 onwards) (EH3a) Will get up scans of documentation soon. See, that 'early" Ernestine was handed out in the summer of 1912! Edited August 1, 2013 by Rick Research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Werner and Rick your both absolutely brilliant in finding him and providing the award rolls is incredible . Pouring through these rolls with so many other names must be a huge challenge and lots of hours if not days. The documents are a wonder to see which brings life to so many names. Thank you ever so much for your time and the best part is Richard Bruckner is not forgotten :jumping: . Spot on with the SEHO being recycled, not only the configuration of the lions but the badge itself measures 39 mm across which is consistent with earlier examples. I'm glade too that you had the SEHO rolls from 1912. Surprised to learn that he was a native of Saxony-Anhalt but yet his Bear is placed last... It would be safe to say he never served during WWI in any capacity. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 My very bad! In my scribbles and trips up and down the tower stairs between floors of books, I had Brückner as Hauptmann dR... and couldn't find him. Uh, that's because he was a Rittmeister dR, retiring from reserve duty with Ulanen Regiment 6 in 1904/05 So that's where he got the LD1. Haven't got to the war yet. Quite a few retirees were called back up for duty. Or he may have been doing war work related to the paper industry. Since Research Gnome Dave is returning from a highly successful trip through the Anhalt archives, this story may not yet be finished.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 No worries. That's actually a pleasant surprise that he was a Cavalry Officer to a Uhlan Regiment. My very bad! In my scribbles and trips up and down the tower stairs between floors of books, I had Brückner as Hauptmann dR... and couldn't find him. Uh, that's because he was a Rittmeister dR, retiring from reserve duty with Ulanen Regiment 6 in 1904/05 So that's where he got the LD1. Haven't got to the war yet. Quite a few retirees were called back up for duty. Or he may have been doing war work related to the paper industry. Since Research Gnome Dave is returning from a highly successful trip through the Anhalt archives, this story may not yet be finished.... No worries. What a pleasant surprise that he was a Cavalry Officer to an Uhlan Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Richard Brückner: Factory owner in Calbe, Kgl. Pr. Kommerzienrat, chairman of the association of German paper manufacturers. Married 1891 to Auguste v. Jacobs. 1.10.77: One Year Volunteer in Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 6 12.8.79: Sekonde-Lieutenant d.R. 15.2.90: Premier-Lieutenant d.R. 22.3.95: Rittmeister d.R. 18.10.04: retired with regimental uniform. Died 5 December 1916. Stammliste des Thüringischen Ulanen-Regiments Nr. 6 Dienstaltersliste der Offiziere des Beurlaubtenstandes der Königlich Preussichen Armee 1902 Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Aha! And the naughty next of kin either failed to return all four awards as required--thus saving them for collecting posterity... or they bought them. Probably the former, in midst of the wartime confusion. It is always particularly satisfying to have an end to a story like this since usually the paper trail (how appropriate in Brückner's case!) just fizzles out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Richard Brückner: Factory owner in Calbe, Kgl. Pr. Kommerzienrat, chairman of the association of German paper manufacturers. Married 1891 to Auguste v. Jacobs. 1.10.77: One Year Volunteer in Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 6 12.8.79: Sekonde-Lieutenant d.R. 15.2.90: Premier-Lieutenant d.R. 22.3.95: Rittmeister d.R. 18.10.04: retired with regimental uniform. Died 5 December 1916. Stammliste des Thüringischen Ulanen-Regiments Nr. 6 Dienstaltersliste der Offiziere des Beurlaubtenstandes der Königlich Preussichen Armee 1902 Regards Glenn Thanks for providing that additional info. I see that he passed away in 1916 during the Great War. Is there anyway to know if he reenlisted, and died from the conflict or from natural causes? There must have been a cut off date in their age to serve again. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 He never appeared in the Militär-Wochenblätter, so presumably remained at his civilian job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Brian, No mention of any WW1 service in the UR 6 Stammliste. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 He never appeared in the Militär-Wochenblätter, so presumably remained at his civilian job. Brian, No mention of any WW1 service in the UR 6 Stammliste. Regards Glenn Thank you Gentleman for informing me how his career ended. All the pieces to the puzzle have been found. With certainty we were able to I'd Richard Bruckner's bar which thanks to this forum made it possible. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I forgot to mention-- look at the Ernestine Roll page. See all the little check marks down the left margin? Those--I've learned from transcribing hundreds of thousands from over half a dozen German states--indicate that the usual "sign this receipt and return when you get your gong" paperwork WAS completed. There are notations in the universal "Bemerkungen" column if, in fact, somebody did not--or a piece was returned because they were dead before receipt. Now see the BIG checkmarks on some of the names... and go over to THEIR "Remarks." Big checkmark on a name always meant Dead-and-Returned. This is again, evidence that your bar WAS his...that his heirs did NOT return the EH3a. Sometimes being a Research Gnome is like doing forensic tax auditing for criminal prosecutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Hi, sorry Rick - the H dRad was my mistake...but you see "je older desto better"... here two small bars you like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 ...and the second... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 ...and a new one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 ...another anknown bar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 ...or this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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