Oberst F?rstenau or F?rstmann

[Naxos]

Gentlemen,

I would like to verify a Saxon Oberst named F?rstenau or F?rstmann (can not quite make out the signature).

He was a recipient of the Komthurkreuz des Kgl. S?chsischen Milit?r St.Heinrich Ordens and the Albrechts-Orden (Officer's Cross with Swords).

What was his full and correct name, his military career and command.

Regards, Hardy

[Daniel Krause]

F?rstenAU is the name.

If we are speaking about the same, I?ve seen a portrait of him too. Very nice thing.

If You are the buyer, let me know and You will get additional info from my "Saxon secret Wonder Weapon".

Best regards

Daniel

[Naxos]

Hello Daniel

yes, we are talking about the same thing. I noticed it 8 min. before the end of the auction, put a bid on it and I got it.

I know that he was the Kommandeur of the RIR102, but thats about it, if you have any info on him I would really appreciate it.

Gruss aus Kanada, Hardy

Of course, as soon as I get it I will post some nice scans.

[webr55]

Generalmajor Emil Fürstenau? That was a nice pic, apparently he "singlehandedly" led his regiment... ok, bad pun.

Edited November 14, 2017 by webr55

[Daniel Krause]

here You are:

...and show us the pic!!!

Best regards

Daniel

[Jacky]

If I may bother you,

I see quite often ranks with;

Char.

z D.

a D.

What do these abbreviations denote???

Kind regards and thanks in advance,

Jacky

[Mike Dwyer]

If I may bother you,

I see quite often ranks with;

Char.

z D.

a D.

What do these abbreviations denote???

Kind regards and thanks in advance,

Jacky

I believe Char. means a character promotion, they hold they rank by a special appointment as a reward for service. a D. stands for au?er Dienst, which means retired. I'm a little bit fuzzy on z D., but I know it stands for zur Disposition, which I think means someone who is sort of retired, but is still eligible to be called up for military duty.

As I said, I'm a bit fuzzy on all this, so I could be totally off!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

charakterisiert was indeed a brevet "bump up"-- usually OUT, on retirement, but not unknown on active duty around 1900 as a seniority cheat. So it depends on the time and the usage. Anybody "char. (Rank) aD" was a grade up on retirement.

aD for ausser Dienst was retired BUT during the FIRST World War, officers who had been retired and were called back up were still referred to as "Major aD" just as if they were retired, even if on frontline duty. The same type officer was "zV" (zur Verf?gung) in the SECOND World War.

zD for zur Disposition in the IMPERIAL period was BOTH a category of semi-retired officers in dead end positions like a Bezirkskommando or Landwehrbezirk (basically the local draft office director in peacetime, that sort of thing) orrrrrrr

you guessed it

was pretty much also a euphemism for retired SENIOR officers who were actually "aD" but apprently got to travel now and then on "official inspections" and that sort of thing. Seems to have been more common for Generals before 1914 than aD-- probably a pension dodge, too.

Under the Third Reich, zD officers were the semi-retired dead-ender types before the war.

In the Imperial period, there were physical differences in the rank insignia of aD and zD officers, but nothing to distinguish a "char." type. In the 1930s, these officers wore a little Sergeant-type strip of braid fore and aft under the centers of their shoulder boards to indicate semi-retired and retired status.

[Mike Dwyer]

In the Imperial period, there were physical differences in the rank insignia of aD and zD officers, but nothing to distinguish a "char." type.

Rick,

I'd love to see a photo of what those differences were. When I was in high school I had a friend who's father had "liberated" a rather extensive set of color sheets during WW2 that were about 8 x 13 inches. The first 15 or 20 had color drawings of officers in the new field grey parade dress uniforms (is that the friedensrock??), then there were pages and pages that showed all of the details of each regiment's particular colors trim, shoulder straps, etc. and on the officer's shoulder straps I seem to recall that aD officers had a rather broad black stripe going through their braid and zD had even more black in their shoulder straps. Again, I'm relying on memory from 39 years ago, but I seem to recall the generals aD had black stripes mixed in their silver middle stripe of their shoulder strap braid and zD had a solid black stripe that replaced the silver stripe in the braid.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Mike Dwyer

[Naxos]

Hallo Mike, is that what you meant?

Reichswehr Uniformen, Brockhaus 1923

Abzeichen f?r Verabschiedete mit Erlaubnis zum tragen der Uniform (Boards for retired officers with permission to wear the Uniform)

Edited December 18, 2006 by Naxos

[Glenn J]

Mike,

I'd love to see a photo of what those differences were

The pre war insignia took the form of the epaulette bridles which in the case of z.D. officers had three stripes in the state colour and those for a.D. types, a ziz-zag pattern. With the abolition of the epaulette for the new 1915 "Friedensuniform", the difference was in the shoulder boards. A couple of points: z.D. officers in established posts such as Bezirkskommandeure, Bezirksoffiziere etc wore the normal "active" insignia. The 1915 special z.D and a.D. boards were only worn on the "Friedensuniform".

Here are the 1915 pattern from "Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs-und Friedens-Uniform".

Regards

Glenn

[Glenn J]

And the various pre war insignia taken from "Das Deutsche Heer Friedensuniformen bei Ausbruch des Weltkrieges".

Regards

Glenn

[Mike Dwyer]

Hallo Mike, is that what you meant?

Reichswehr Uniformen, Brockhaus 1923

Abzeichen f?r Verabschiedete mit Erlaubnis zum tragen der Uniform (Boards for retired officers with permission to wear the Uniform)

Thanks, Naxos, for your reply. Actually the ones I was thinking about are the ones Glenn J posted in post # 11 just after yours.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Mike Dwyer

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike,

The pre war insignia took the form of the epaulette bridles which in the case of z.D. officers had three stripes in the state colour and those for a.D. types, a ziz-zag pattern. With the abolition of the epaulette for the new 1915 "Friedensuniform", the difference was in the shoulder boards. A couple of points: z.D. officers in established posts such as Bezirkskommandeure, Bezirksoffiziere etc wore the normal "active" insignia. The 1915 special z.D and a.D. boards were only worn on the "Friedensuniform".

Here are the 1915 pattern from "Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs-und Friedens-Uniform".

Regards

Glenn

Thanks, Glenn! This is the color plate I believe my high school friend had, or at least one very much like it.

[Naxos]

Gentlemen, let me introduce you to Emil Adolphe F?rstenau

[Naxos]

[Riley1965]

Naxos,

Thanks for the pics!!!

Doc

Edited December 28, 2006 by Riley1965

[Naxos]

Thanks Doc,

the Best is that on the back of the Photograph is a dedication by Colonel F?rstenau himself to an Army Surgeon:

" To my dear Oberstabsarzt Dr. Wuskert in remembrance of the War-years spent together, with thankfull recognition

In the field, October 18 F?rstenau, Oberst"

I wonder if it is the same surgeon that amputated his arm?

Hardy

[Deruelle]

What a beauty

Christophe

[Naxos]

Thank you Christophe,

any idea what the medals are on the bar?

Hardy

[Stogieman]

St. Henry Order, Ritterkreuz

Saxon Merit Order, w. Swords (Assume 1. kl.)

Prussian EK2

unsure

unsure

unsure

unsure

[Guest Rick Research]

Evil Ricky-- YOU had an indooors photo of him-- I remember the empty sleeve. Can you find the scan?

The ribbon bar appears to be an outdated one worn after two of the pinbacks superceded the awards on there.

The scan Daniel posted from Erhard Roth's work on Saxon officers shows the award dates--

1) H-R (StH-R) 2) VR1X (SV3aX) 3) 1914 EK2 (no date) 4) AR1 (SA3a), 5) DAK (Saxon XXV) 6) what appears to be an ungazetted Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3X 7) WK RmLX (WK3XmL)

I can also add from the unpublished rolls that he received a Saxe-Weimar Order of the White Falcon-Commander X (SWF2bX) as the first Saxon recipient in 1916's award list.

The dedication was actually to recalled out of retirement reserve Saxon medical officer Oberstabsarzt dR aD Dr. Max W?rkert (born 31.1.1869) who was himself a St Henry Order Knight and served in the same Brigade as F?rstenau.

Perhaps Dr W was the one who amputated his arm!

[Stogieman]

The (Truly) Evil Twin? (Rick Research) has a good memory... here's the photo I had in my Saint Henry Collection:

[Naxos]

Rick,

I really appreciate your comments. Stogie, I would like to see that pic if you find it. Any idea how F?rstenau lost his arm?

Thank you, Hardy

[Riley1965]

Rick,

Would you Please translate your list for this Imperial Newbie?

1) H-R (StH-R) 2) VR1X (SV3aX) 3) 1914 EK2 (no date) 4) AR1 (SA3a), 5) DAK (Saxon XXV)

Doc