Imperial Russia Imperial Russian ribbon bar

[webr55]

Gentlemen,

I just got this ribbon bar with Imperial Russian awards. This is not my area. Am I correct that these are St. Anne, St. Stanislaus, St. Vladimir order, Romanov anniversary 1913 and what ? (Prussian?) It looks quite German, but is this a bar for a Russian officer? What else can be said about it?

Chris

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

The back:

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Great Dane]

Russia had a habit of using the same ribbon on different medals and orders (and different ribbons on the same medal).

The first 3 ribbons are also used on medals, but their placement on the bar indicates they were for the orders you describe.

Ribbon #4 could also be:

- Medal for the Far East Naval Expedition (1907)

If ribbon #6 is russian, it could be:

- Commemorative Medal of the Reign of Alexander III (1896)

- Medal for Zeal

But if ribbon #5 is non-russian (which I think it is), the #6 is probably 'foreign' as well.

/Mike

[Guest Rick Research]

The dark blue one is probably the Mobilization of 1914 Medal. Bet the red at the end is a French Legion of Honor.

I don't think ribbon bars ever caught on IN Russia at that time, so possibly this was an officer serving with the other Allies in the west, trying to look like them.

It is very like Austrian improvized ribbon bars from during the war:

[webr55]

Thanks!

I don't think ribbon bars ever caught on IN Russia at that time.

That's what I thought too, but wasn't sure. Austrian style, right! Does anyone have a similar example from Russia?

And what level might he have been, with those Russian orders?

[Archipelago]

Hi!

I think Rick is right about the French legion of honour. My statement for the ribbon bar would be:

1. St Anne 3rd cl

2. St Stanislaus 3rd cl

3. Commemorative medal for the centenary of the 1812 war

4. Commemorative medal for the tercentenary of the Romanov dynasty 1913

5. Medal for the general mobilisation 1914

6. French Legion of honour

It was very common, in western europe, after the great war to use these western types of ribbon bars on different social occasions. There was a great number of russian emigrees in France, Finland, Germany and many other European countries. Your ribbon bar would most definately date to post-war period, 1920?s or later.

Best Regards!

Paul

[REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR]

Hi!

Your ribbon bar would most definately date to post-war period, 1920?s or later.

I would think later, much later like 1990's-2000's. I question the thick "bicycle spoke" pin in new condition used for a mounting device. My guess, it was made for collectors.

[webr55]

I would think later, much later like 1990's-2000's. I question the thick "bicycle spoke" pin in new condition used for a mounting device. My guess, it was made for collectors.

That would surprise me! Have you got any fake "bicycle spoke" pin ribbon bars to compare?

[REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR]

That would surprise me! Have you got any fake "bicycle spoke" pin ribbon bars to compare?

The overlay style of the ribbons and the mounting harware used is not of the period for Imperial Russian ribbon bars. This style has has the Austrian look to it. I would fold back the ribbons and check the metal mounting device and see if it is new. Also check the end of the spoke and see if it has been freshly cut. You would see shinny new metal at the end of the pin. Bicycle spokes are commonly used in medal and ribbon bars by dealers from Austria, Romania, Russia to name a few places that are recently made and put together for resale to collectors. The dealers from there would assemble original ribbons and or medals and make an attractive bar reselling it for 2-3 times the value. The givaway is always crude stiching ( Hand sewn using a larger size mil thickness thread of todays standards) , discrepencies on how the medal order are mounted (Dealers usually make a lot of mistakes by mounting in the wrong order due to lack of knowledge), large pins from bicycle spokes and new metal backing hardware being used. Look at each ribbon and medal bar closely to determine if it is of the period.

Edited February 6, 2007 by REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR

[webr55]

The overlay style of the ribbons and the mounting harware used is not of the period for Imperial Russian ribbon bars. This style has has the Austrian look to it. I would fold back the ribbons and check the metal mounting device and see if it is new. Also check the end of the spoke and see if it has been freshly cut. You would see shinny new metal at the end of the pin. Bicycle spokes are commonly used in medal and ribbon bars by dealers from Austria, Romania, Russia to name a few places that are recently made and put together for resale to collectors. The dealers from there would assemble original ribbons and or medals and make an attractive bar reselling it for 2-3 times the value. The givaway is always crude stiching ( Hand sewn using a larger size mil thickness thread of todays standards) , discrepencies on how the medal order are mounted (Dealers usually make a lot of mistakes by mounting in the wrong order due to lack of knowledge), large pins from bicycle spokes and new metal backing hardware being used. Look at each ribbon and medal bar closely to determine if it is of the period.

Thanks for your concerns, but: The metal mounting device does not look new at all under the ribbons. The spoke has not been freshly cut at all from what I can see. The entire bar also shows considerable and consistent wear. The ribbons are not in an obviously wrong order.

Certainly this has the Austrian look, but of which Austrian period? We all agree that this is not pre-1918, but why can't it be 1920s for an Imperial Russian officer in Austrian exile?

Another point: Wouldn't a faker most probably make all ribbons overlap in an equal manner? The last two do not.

Chris

[webr55]

Here's a new find regarding the use of ribbon bars in Imperial Russia: During a recent trip to the Imperial War Museum London, I saw this tunic of a Russian Hussar captain - with a ribbon bar. It consists of a St. Stanislaus, St. Anne, and the 1912 medal:

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[JBFloyd]

Here's a ribbon bar of a Russian who later served in the French Foreign Legion. I'd be interested in opinions on the identification of the last ribbon in the top row and the white ribbon in the bottom row (a white tri-fold ribbon accompanies the group, so possibly a Serbian Red Cross Society decoration).

Unfortunately, the documents that accompany the group don't match the ribbon bar or the bulk of the medals. The documents include a 1931 Legion of Honor, chevalier, a 1934 French Colonial Medal (clasp "Maroc"), a 1934 Croix de Guerre (TOE) and a 1915 Belgian Order of Leopold, chevalier (awarded for services as part of the Russian mission to Belgian General Headquarters).

I'd love to have everything in one place, but sometimes that's not possible.

[JBFloyd]

And the reverse.

[TS Allen]

Hello,

Google brought me to this three-year-old thread and it piqued my interest. Where would a Russian officer serving in the Foreign Legion have gotten his Great War service medal from? From the Russians? They never issued such an award, as best as I'm aware. From the French?

TTFN,

~TS

[Noor]

Hi Chris,

I just love your bar like I have told you before... if you ever want to sell or trade it please let me know....

[Mathomhaus]

I realize that is is a very old thread, but for the record, the Imperial Russian order of precedence for orders was St. Vladimir, St. Anne and then St. Stanislaus - chances are the ribbon bar on the Russian Hussar captain tunic was put on upside down by an uncertain curator.

Ever since I asked a curator at the West Point museum in the early 70s if I could take a closer look at a German tunic with a Hitler Jugend cuff title only to be told told that, oh, they had just fastened the title on with a safety pin to make the D Day exhibit look more impressive, I've been somewhat disinclined to accept any museum display as being automatically "right" - unless the case also has some period photos, too...

Regards

[Noor]

Here is my only Imperial Russia (actually from Civil War period I think) ribbon bar

- Order of St George ribbon / St.George Cross / Bravery Medal

- St Alexander Nevsky ribbon / Medal for Zeal/Medal for Zealous Service/Commemorative medal for the Reign of Alexander III

- Russo-Turkish War 1877-1876 (?)

- Order of St Vladimir ribbon/Commemorative Medal of 100th Anniversary of Patriotic War 1812

- Distinguished Service in 1914 Mobilization

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

Google brought me to this three-year-old thread and it piqued my interest. Where would a Russian officer serving in the Foreign Legion have gotten his Great War service medal from? From the Russians? They never issued such an award, as best as I'm aware. From the French?

The French used to confer the Victory Medal and ocassionally also the War Medal for WWI to soldiers (especially officers) who had previously served in the Imperial Army or related forces (Polish Corps, Czechoslovak Legion). No wonder that that fellow received both, particularly if he served in the Foreign Legion.

[Trooper_D]

On 24/03/2008 at 13:11, webr55 said:

Here's a new find regarding the use of ribbon bars in Imperial Russia: During a recent trip to the Imperial War Museum London, I saw this tunic of a Russian Hussar captain - with a ribbon bar. It consists of a St. Stanislaus, St. Anne, and the 1912 medal:

The original post was a long time ago, but I thought - for anyone who reads it now - I would provide a bit more information on this hussar atilla, a better image of which can be seen on the Imperial War Museum's website, here,

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30097064

It belonged to Vladimir Littauer who served in the 1st Sumsky Hussars from 1913 and survived the Great War, eventually to end up in NYC running a riding school and, afterwards, becoming one of the USA's leading equestrian instructors and, indeed, theoretician who advocated the 'forward seat' riding style. His Wikipedia page appears to be accurate,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Littauer

Perhaps of more interest to GMIC: along with a number of equestrian training books, he wrote Russian Hussar - A Story of the Imperial Cavalry, in which he describes his military career from the Nicholas Cavalry School in St. Petersburg to the Revolution and, afterwards, fighting with the White Russian forces. It is still in print and is a 'must-read' for anyone interested in the Imperial Russian cavalry. I am reading it at the moment but have only just got to the start of the Great War so cannot yet say whether he received the awards on this bar and, thus, whether it might be his (the IWM page doesn't mention it).
 

[webr55]

Very interesting! Thank you for this additional information.

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

BTW: the bar is turned upside down. The ribbon of the Order of St. Vladimir should go first.