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Very nice indeed! :love::love::love:

Very likely the RAO am Bande der Rettungsmedaille was given at the same time with the Rettungsmedaille. I've already seen a Navy officer who got 3 medals for the same Rescue action. A similar bar was somewhere on a specialized German Militaria magazine. It would be nice to see the backing too...

Ciao,

Claudio

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ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh :jumping::jumping::jumping:

You must adopt me!!!! This bar has made my day. Now, why was the Red Eagle legitimately placed on a Lifesaving Ribbon? Was this automatic for a second award?

Paul

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ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh :jumping::jumping::jumping:

You must adopt me!!!! This bar has made my day. Now, why was the Red Eagle legitimately placed on a Lifesaving Ribbon? Was this automatic for a second award?

Paul

Paul, yes, it was possible to award the Red Eagle Order and if i remember correctly, also the Crown-Order on the Lifesaving-ribbon for a second award.

Awesome bar and extremly rare. :cheers:

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I do actually believe that one could get only life savings mdal only. The purpose of those house orders on life saving ribbon was to honor second or even third reoccurances?

I am sure it is written in the rules and regulations. Need to look it up I guess....

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Problems.

Aside from the MEZ2 being behind incorrectly rather than in front of the lifesaving awards...

Second awards were made of whatever best "fit" the recipient's status-- usually either an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen in silver on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon, or a Crown Order 4 on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon. For THIRD award-- see Oberstleutnant Veit of Ulanen Rgt 14 in 1914-- Red Eagle 3rd with Bow on Lifesaving ribbon, Crown 3 on Lifesaving ribbon, the ? and TWO Turkish lifesaving medals! :speechless1:

I cannot imagine ANY circumstance that would lift an enlisted-level 1904-06 Unteroffizier to a Major-level 2nd lifesaving award winner by 1918.

Something has been switched-- either an AEz for that Red Eagle, or a KO4X for that MEZ2. And I still can't imagine how anyone would have mounted them that way.

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The Bar comes from the ANS sale and still has the old inventory/heritage sticker attached, which states that it was purchased druing the late 20th.

I do not think that it is uncommon that a Feldwebelleutnant would have been promoted into the real officers ranks. Also, what would a Faehnrich would have gotten during Africa campaigns?

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Problems.

Aside from the MEZ2 being behind incorrectly rather than in front of the lifesaving awards...

Second awards were made of whatever best "fit" the recipient's status-- usually either an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen in silver on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon, or a Crown Order 4 on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon. For THIRD award-- see Oberstleutnant Veit of Ulanen Rgt 14 in 1914-- Red Eagle 3rd with Bow on Lifesaving ribbon, Crown 3 on Lifesaving ribbon, the ? and TWO Turkish lifesaving medals! :speechless1:

I cannot imagine ANY circumstance that would lift an enlisted-level 1904-06 Unteroffizier to a Major-level 2nd lifesaving award winner by 1918.

Something has been switched-- either an AEz for that Red Eagle, or a KO4X for that MEZ2. And I still can't imagine how anyone would have mounted them that way.

Did not know there was a protocol in the placing of orders & medals on a bar if all the medals & orders were from the same State. Is that with all the German States or only Prussia? Please excuse if the question seems a bit naive.

Thanks

Yankee

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Oddly enough, there WEREN'T regulations for many of the German states (so much for "Ordnung!") but Prussuia's rules were extensive and stable over time.

Prussia placed the Lifesaving Medal behind all Prussian war awards and before all peacetime awards. That remained in effect basically from 1833 to 1933.

A Prussian with Prussian precedence for his ?:

But a Prussian Baron detached to Mecklenburg-Strelitz as regimental commander there and wearing his awards, even ? in Mecklenburg precedence:

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Oddly enough, there WEREN'T regulations for many of the German states (so much for "Ordnung!") but Prussuia's rules were extensive and stable over time.

Prussia placed the Lifesaving Medal behind all Prussian war awards and before all peacetime awards. That remained in effect basically from 1833 to 1933.

A Prussian with Prussian precedence for his ?:

But a Prussian Baron detached to Mecklenburg-Strelitz as regimental commander there and wearing his awards, even ? in Mecklenburg precedence:

Thanks for explaining & those illustrations, neat to learn something new and exciting :D

Sincerely

Yankee

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I just received another theory:

It could be a 1-3 year volunteer with NCO rank during the colonial war in Africa. The combination of the bars WATERBERG and KARAS-BERGE seems to fit for 1. or 2. Bataillon of the 2. Feldregiments or for 1., 2. and7. Batterie of the Feldartillerieabteilung.

The Red Eagle Order could have been awarded at a much later date in his civilian life for yet another life saved. I guess somebody will have to catalogue all prussian orders lists in order to make this identification happen.

I was also given the following man as just an example:

I am sure they may be a few more then him.

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Hello everyone:

Medalnet, congratulations on obtaining this beautiful bar!

Rick is correct, the MEII "should" have been mounted first, but I have seen enough groups to know that the rules were not always followed for a variety of reasons.

The RAOIV was typically awarded to civilians. Therefore Medalnet's theory holds merit. I believe that the bar may have been "added to" by the civilian (i.e. he extended his military service bar and added the life-saving awards after he had retired from military service). Medalnet, can you see under the backing? If the bar was extended, and the man was a civilian, he probably didn't care about official precident as he was out of the service and the life-saving awards mattered more to him. He may have been a pensioner by the time the awards were made and was on a budget and didn't want to pay to have the bar properly re-mounted.

The bar looks as right as can be to me [original ribbons, original awards (old MEII copy), and best of all, genuine DSWA bars!]. It looks like nothing has been messed with on this bar and I would not hesitate to buy it from Medalnet for what he paid plus a bit!

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Medalnet, you broke the rule (you didn't show us the reverse of the group). Could you post a photo/scan of the reverse of the group? It may provide more clues!

Edited by Schie?platzmeister
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The first award had to have been an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen on Lifesaving ribbon. It is inconceivable that anyone's military/social status could have accelerated between private/NCO and Major in at most 12 years. Absence of a military long service award on the bar is also puzzling, since a short-timer before the war would have gotten an LD2 and a career NCO would have received a long service medal. That suggests to me a pre-1913 bar with the ugly old brooch long service awards. An officer could not have made this sort of advance in status... and yet "missed" the World War. (1906 to 1914 as a pre-war bar is even MORE impossible).

The late Eric Ludvigsen cataloged ANNUAL NUMBERS of all Prussian decorations, and Red Eagle 4s on the Lifesaving Medal Ribbon were:

1881 = 1

1893 = 1

1904 = 1

1908 = 1

1909 = 2

That is complete as of 30 January 1913, after which time annual award volumes were not published and we must rely on the random "space available" entries of the war years.

These six pre-1913 awards are clearly impossible to someone of enlisted status 1904-06, since the LAST one came in 1909.

By contrast. the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen on Lifesaving ribbon was awarded:

1881 = 1

1885 = 1

1886 = 1

1889 = 1

1890 = 1

1891 = 1

1898 = 2

1899 = 1

1901 = 1

1902 = 1

1906 = 1

1907 = 1

1909 = 2

1911 = 4

1912 = 1

1913 = 1

again ending 30 January 1913 for the above statistics. (There were 10 Crown 4s on Lifesaving ribbon all between 1903-13, and I would venture that almost ALL such Order/LSM ribbon awards were to officers in the armed forces and can be found laboriously by trolling through all the Rank Lists.)

So relative rarity is not the issue. ANY Prussian second lifesaving award is Insanely Rare. It is the COMBINATION which makes no sense at all given the reality of Imperial German class structure. One would have to presume a "gentleman ranker" who served in the ranks while being there as a plantation owner or senior level otherwise undecorated civil servant-- with ZERO previous homeland militray service to have given him existing militray status. I can't see that.

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Hello Rick:

Thank you for all of the great information!

So, if I understand correctly, no known awards of the RAO on the life-saving ribbon were made to civilians pre-1913, and the normal award to an NCO pre-1913 would have been the AEM on a life-saving ribbon.

This is an interesting mystery to be sure!

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Rick, Eric was a friend of mine. I never did ask him where he got these listings of Prussian awards. Do you know what the original source was?

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No, not "no civilians," but that MOST of those few awards should show up to military officers by going through the annual Rank Lists.

Eric used decades and decades of the annual Prussian Orders Lists, MASSIVE volumes listing everybody who received a decoration each year-- though I believe no actual DATES were shown, simply a presumably chronological list by every grade of every Prussian award. I don't think they were alphabetical, and certainly not indexed. (Rather like the Sachsen-Weimar rolls only on a monumentally larger scale.)

Apparently no 1914-on editions came out, because of the war.

What I have is the copy Eric sent to my late guru George in January 1992 -- several hundred pages of typewritten columns of annotated and graphed years and numbers. Eric (a perfectionist's perfectionist! :cheers: ) felt it was "a work in progress" :speechless1: because he was missing the Orders Lists for 1817, 1825, 1832, and 1838 (!!!), and wasn't happy with what he had on the 1813 Iron Cross. I've got some of the "work" pages which are literally millions of ||||/, ||||/, ||||/ counts of EVERYTHING for over a century. It is a mind boggling lifetime's labor, which apparently never got published (?) anywhere.

THAT is a tremendous loss to Imperial German colleectors, and it is to share the work of George and Eric and Neal--so generously shared when they were alive-- that I am laboring now to get the sum of their knowledge out to the global collecting community.

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Thanks Rick!

It is nice to know the background regarding this information. Eric had sent me typewritten! excerpts at times regarding specific awards. I always marvelled at his encyclopedic mind. If I ever know a quarter of what he knew I will be well off! He never failed to amaze me. If one mentioned a new acquisition while speaking to Eric, a few weeks later in the mail would come a typewritten letter expertly detailing the exploits and other awards of the recipient.

Thank you Rick (and others) for carrying on the tradition so that all of this great historical information is not lost forever and so that the labor of those who are now gone was not in vain.

Best regards,

"SPM"

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Just to round out the "double" statistics:

there was ONE award of a Cross of the General Decoration on Lifesaving ribbon (1907) which was awarded to then 21 year old university student Werner-Otto (von) hentig (1886-), later Dr. jur. et. re. pol., wartime recipient of a Coburg Ernestine Knight 2nd X, Prussian HHOX "etc," career diplomat who was Consul General in san Francisco 1928-32, Ambassador to Cilumbia 1934-36, "leader" of the General Consulate Amsterdam 1937-39, and on military service 1939-44.

there was ONE award (1909) of the Crown Order 3rd Class on Lifesaving ribbon-- to the excessively valiant Herr Veit previously mentioned above, and Veit's equally unique Red Eagle 3rd with Bow on Lifesaving ribbon does NOT show up in Eric's statistics because it was made between the May 1913 and May 1914 Rank List issues. Veit had a normal Red Eagle 4th, so God knows whether the BOW on this was the statute type... this was something that had to be invented for him. :speechless1:

That makes a grand total as of 1913 of 38 "doubles" and by May 1914 only ONE "triple."

Triple was said char. Generalmajor aD Georg Veit (1863-1931).

Of the 38 doubles, a quick flip through the 1914 Navy Rank List shows

REO4onLSMR & ? -- Walter Goethe (1880-) FregKapt zS aD after the war

CO4onLSMR & ? --

Max Looff (1874-1954) later Vizeadmiral zS (our very own Werner Nickel has his medal bar)

Max Valentiner (1883-1949) Pour le Merite winner, Kapit?n zS zV in the next war

and

AllgEZonLSMR & ? --

Torpedo-Maschinist Deharde.

Another of the 38 was pre-war double holder (pre-1908 CO4onLSMR& ?) naval retiree and wartime retread KaptLt zS Max Wittmer (1884-) who was ALSO a unique triple in having acquired a REO4oLSMR at some point, exact date unknown. Living in Kiel 1938.

Then doubles with dates unknown (all but the first probably got their second during the war)

Oberf?rster Karl Oehlgardt (1877- alive 1938 in Rosenberg O/S) with GenDeconLSMR and ?,

Kaufm. Direktor Otto Lensch (1891- living in Stuttgart 1938) CO4oLSMR & ?

Major (E) Otto Freiherr von Bibra (1881 and that rank in N?rnberg in 1938) CO4onLSMR and ?

KNOWN wartime doubles, so uncounted in Eric's to-1914 statistics above = and additional

Major dR aD Hans Zerrener (or Zerener0 (1871- alive 1938 in Magdeburg, with REO4onLSMR in 1915),

Rittmeister dL Gause-- REO4onLSMR in 1917,

Lt dR Launer with CO4onLSMR in 1916

and naval officers

CO4on LSMR and ?

Joachim Breithaupt (1917)-- (1883-1960) an airship officer later Luftwaffe Generalmajor

Otto Lensch (1916)-- (1891, alive 1963, ex Oberlt zS, Kapit?n zS dR aD)

and a mysterious and possibly not accurate

REO4onLSMR and ?

"Lt zS Recknagel" (1918)

which can only have been a 1917 Lt zS dSW II fellow born in 1875 who in the Februray 1918 Navy Rank List shows no lifesaving award at all, only an EK2!!!!

From the 1908/09 Orders Almanac: (von) Hentig and Wittmer above appear, with:

REO4onLSMR & ?=

Lt dR Karl Bader (1872-) factory owner Berlin-Sch?neburg, and

Oberlt and Police President Retired, Felix Graf von K?nigsdorff (1835-)

CO4onLSMR & ? =

Hauptmann dL aD Ernst Hantel (1852-), mill owner in (Frauenburg if I'm reading my scribbled notes back correctly)

Ernst Nordt, baths owner in Magdeburg, and

Theodor Sauer, teacher in neustadtUpper Silesia.

The only other GenDeconLSMR & ? holder in that volume was

Julius Fuchs, fireman in Berlin.

So that's a pretty good chunk of the pre-war "doubles," 16 of 38 already without dipping into the army Rank Lists. None of the above Red eagle 4 on Lifesaving Medal Ribbon gholders could have worn the medal bar, nor could von Hentig.

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Yes, but easily fixed, since Generaal Decorations are so common without this ribbon-- 152,378 by January 1913.

I have been convinced since seeing this INCREDIBLY rare bar that it could not possibly have been a Red Eagle lifesaving award. Apparently at some point somebody with monkey fingers decided to "improve" what IS one of the most amazing medal bars of Wilhemine Germany.

WITH the annual award rolls (which, God be praised I do not have, so I'm off the hook!!!! :cheeky: ), a comparison of the insanely few AllgEZ lifesaving winners with the MEZ2 rolls (3,178 1904-06 but a couple of those probably were for other colonies) WILL

at some point

produce the name, and from that more on, the recipient of this incredible medal bar. Might even explain why he mounted it this way! :beer:

At least knowing which years to LOOK for the AllgEZ lifesaving awards cuts down a few tens of thousands of pages to hunt through. Wartime awards will be tougher, but I am sure that somebody in Germany must be or will be working on those rolls.

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Gentlemen,

I don?t know if this is of any help; but in his magnum opus, Nimmergut states that a Kabinett Order dated 12 Nov. 1881 mentions two Red Eagles 4th class on the lifesaving ribbon and another to Hauptmann M?ller vom Feldartillerie-Regt. Nr. 15 in Kabinett Order dated 13 Oct. 1893. And then there is an award (as I make it out) to an Oberstleutnant Veit of the Schleife/bow on the lifesaving ribbon, 3rd class, on 10 March 1914.

Regards,

Wild Card

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  • 5 months later...

Oddly enough, there WEREN'T regulations for many of the German states (so much for "Ordnung!") but Prussuia's rules were extensive and stable over time.

Prussia placed the Lifesaving Medal behind all Prussian war awards and before all peacetime awards. That remained in effect basically from 1833 to 1933.

A Prussian with Prussian precedence for his ?:

But a Prussian Baron detached to Mecklenburg-Strelitz as regimental commander there and wearing his awards, even ? in Mecklenburg precedence:

Rick, to whom does the long BAR BELONG?

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  • 13 years later...

Old thread, I know....

Quite often, when I come across something, I think, Rick would love to see it....

 

This photo came to me recently.

Legendary triple lifesaver Lt. Wittmer

 

Best,

Daniel

20200810_211747.jpg

20200810_211733.jpg

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