dante Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hi, I have the opportunity to purchase a group to a Romanian medical officer "Colonel Mavru Aurul" 1941-45, he should be entitled to the Michael Cross, Maria Cross, order of the crown, Star order and medical award in gold, all this comes with citations , could anyone confirm him and his awards, and any thoughts on price, many thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hi, I have the opportunity to purchase a group to a Romanian medical officer "Colonel Mavru Aurul" 1941-45, he should be entitled to the Michael Cross, Maria Cross, order of the crown, Star order and medical award in gold, all this comes with citations , could anyone confirm him and his awards, and any thoughts on price, many thanks, PaulWhat do you mean by "Michael Cross", is it the Order of Michael the Brave? Do you have the date of the award or at least the period in which the officer was active? Can you please check the name, "Mavru Aurul" sounds odd (maybe it's "Aurel")? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 What do you mean by "Michael Cross", is it the Order of Michael the Brave? Do you have the date of the award or at least the period in which the officer was active? Can you please check the name, "Mavru Aurul" sounds odd (maybe it's "Aurel")? Yes its the Order of Michael the Brave circa 1942-45, sorry yes "Aurel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 I'll check the name this evening. Meanwhile, can you post some images of the awards and the certificates that come with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 I'll check the name this evening. Meanwhile, can you post some images of the awards and the certificates that come with them?Have not purchased yet, need to find out a bit more, they are asking $1500 for the group plus documents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Paul, there is no MAVRU AUREL in the published list of the Knights of the Order of Michael the Brave. The list however is not complete, so if the name is correct there still is a chance that you have stumbled upon an unlisted knight. But this means that you will have to look carefully at the awards and the certificates. "Reproductions" of Romanian orders are unfortunately known to exist... So do not be afraid to ask for images at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Paul, there is no MAVRU AUREL in the published list of the Knights of the Order of Michael the Brave. The list however is not complete, so if the name is correct there still is a chance that you have stumbled upon an unlisted knight. But this means that you will have to look carefully at the awards and the certificates. "Reproductions" of Romanian orders are unfortunately known to exist... So do not be afraid to ask for images at this stage.Carol, many thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Carol, many thanks, PaulCarol, please find attached, Colonel Mavru Aurel, Cross of Queen Marie 1st class etc thoughts please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Carol, please find attached, Colonel Mavru Aurel, Cross of Queen Marie 1st class etc thoughts please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Better picks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Better picksCitations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hi Paul! Interesting images, although rather small.Carol, please find attached, Colonel Mavru Aurel, Cross of Queen Marie 1st class etc thoughts pleaseIn the first, one could see the 1st class of the Order of Queen Mary Cross with war ribbon, the Knight's cross of the Order of the Star of Romania with swords and Military Virtue ribbon, the Officer's cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania (2nd type) with swords and Military Virtue ribbon, the Knight's cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania (first type), 1st and 2nd class of the Sanitary Merit Cross on war ribbon, the badge for 25 years in service and the Commemorative medal for the Centennial of King Carol I.Interesting bar, but it raises some questions.1. The 1st class of the Order of Queen Mary Cross was worn on the neck, hence I find it odd to see it on a bar.2. I was surprised to see the Order of Queen Mary Cross before the Order of the Star of Romania (but maybe 'they' thought that the 1st class of the former is more important than the 5th class of the latter, which was actually the case).3. As far as I know the Officer's cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania ranked above the Knight's cross of the Order of the Star of Romania, so there might be another breach of the regulations in their relative placement on the bar.I would however have to mention that the rules for making bars have not been thoroughly observed in Romania, so my comments could be just 'theoretical' ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Colonel Mavru Aurel, Cross of Queen Marie 1st class etc thoughts pleaseOne more question mark here. The cross on the bar appears to be the 1st class of the Order of Queen Mary Cross, while this is an award certificate for the 2nd class. The full text reads:"We Minister State Secretary at the Department of National Defense certify that through High Decree No. 1035 of 14 April 1943 His Majesty the King awarded the Order of Queen Mary Cross 2nd class to Medic Major Mavru I. Aurel of the Ambulance of the 19th Division for the devotion and skills shown in the war against Soviet Russia." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 CitationsThe full text reads:"We Minister State Secretary at the Department of National Defense certify that through High Decree No. [...] of 23 December 1943(?) His Majesty the King awarded the Order of the Star of Romania with swords in the rank of Knight to Medic Major Mavru Aurel of the 19th Infantry Division for the devotion and skills shown in the war against Soviet Russia."This is another disagreement with the medal bar. The badge on the bar is on the Military Virtue ribbon, but the certificate does not mention it. The Military Virtue ribbon denoted direct contact with the enemy and its presence was mentioned on the certificate (see below a typical example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Better picksOnly now have I noticed that a lower class badge of the Order of Queen Mary Cross is indeed present on the medal bar. As Major Mavru did receive a lower class of the order on 14 April 1943, the concern expressed in post no. 13 has to be disregarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 The certificates in the images you've posted appear to be original. In general, WWII certificates for the lower classes of the Romanian orders are made of thick paper, with the stamp-signature of the Minister of Defense and the hand-signature of the Human Resources Manager (Directorul Personalului). Certificates for higher classes or higher ranked orders are hand signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 The certificates in the images you've posted appear to be original. In general, WWII certificates for the lower classes of the Romanian orders are made of thick paper, with the stamp-signature of the Minister of Defense and the hand-signature of the Human Resources Manager (Directorul Personalului). Certificates for higher classes or higher ranked orders are hand signed.Carol many thanks, so is it worth purchasing? is it rare? and is it researchable? and whats it worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Carol many thanks, so is it worth purchasing? is it rare? and is it researchable? and whats it worth?Paul, I am afraid that I cannot help you very much on the evaluation. The 1st class of the Queen Mary Cross appears to be a rare award and hence of high value. I have seen such pieces fetching several hundred euros at auctions, but they were not on bars. I do not know how the value of an order or a medal is influenced by the inclusion in the bar in general (I do not collect medal bars) or in this particular case when we speak about a neck badge. The Orders of the Star and of the Crown are more frequent, but not that cheap and there are three of them on the bar. You have also been offered the certificates and that would be a plus for the value and for the price.But I would add another thing. The change in regime in Romania after WWII made the royal awards obsolete and even dangerous for the bearer. There was therefore a short time window to make bars out of WWII awards and an even shorter one with occasions to wear them publicly. This means that authentic bars are rather rare and this is an attractive point for fakers. There have been reports of fantasy bars made out of genuine but generally damaged awards. The awards on your badge on the other hand seem in good condition. Better images would have helped, as would other opinions of people who handled Romanian medal bars.Furthermore, researching Romanian awards is rather difficult. Military archives include information on the awards and awardees, but this information has not yet been published (with the exception of a good, but apparently incomplete book on the Military Order of Michael the Brave) and accessing the original files seems rather difficult. Here is a link to the Military Archives if you would like to give it a try.Coming back to the lot you were offered, where is the Order of Michael the Brave? This is indeed a prestigious and very rare award which if authentic could make up for a large part of the price the seller asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Paul, I am afraid that I cannot help you very much on the evaluation. The 1st class of the Queen Mary Cross appears to be a rare award and hence of high value. I have seen such pieces fetching several hundred euros at auctions, but they were not on bars. I do not know how the value of an order or a medal is influenced by the inclusion in the bar in general (I do not collect medal bars) or in this particular case when we speak about a neck badge. The Orders of the Star and of the Crown are more frequent, but not that cheap and there are three of them on the bar. You have also been offered the certificates and that would be a plus for the value and for the price.But I would add another thing. The change in regime in Romania after WWII made the royal awards obsolete and even dangerous for the bearer. There was therefore a short time window to make bars out of WWII awards and an even shorter one with occasions to wear them publicly. This means that authentic bars are rather rare and this is an attractive point for fakers. There have been reports of fantasy bars made out of genuine but generally damaged awards. The awards on your badge on the other hand seem in good condition. Better images would have helped, as would other opinions of people who handled Romanian medal bars.Furthermore, researching Romanian awards is rather difficult. Military archives include information on the awards and awardees, but this information has not yet been published (with the exception of a good, but apparently incomplete book on the Military Order of Michael the Brave) and accessing the original files seems rather difficult. Here is a link to the Military Archives if you would like to give it a try.Coming back to the lot you were offered, where is the Order of Michael the Brave? This is indeed a prestigious and very rare award which if authentic could make up for a large part of the price the seller asked.Carol, thanks for your kind response,csorry it must have been his mistake, no Order of Michael, just what is here, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Carol, thanks for your kind response,csorry it must have been his mistake, no Order of Michael, just what is here, PaulYou're welcome, Paul. I am sorry to hear about the Order of Michael the Brave. But then, this means that the published list of Knights of the Order of Michael the Brave was correct regarding the absence of Major Aurel Mavru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 You're welcome, Paul. I am sorry to hear about the Order of Michael the Brave. But then, this means that the published list of Knights of the Order of Michael the Brave was correct regarding the absence of Major Aurel Mavru.Carol, if you know of any Order of Michael the Brave groups please let me know thanks again , Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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