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The Hartmann badge and this other example sold by Niemann certainly embody the features and finesse I recall from handling a couple of originals many years ago.

But the Niemann example has a maker mark - the Hartmann doesn't?

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Guest WAR LORD

Personally I would be very uncomfortable about these badges.

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I agree with Christopher Ailsby. Christopher raised a good point in a PM to me, which I know he shan't mind my repeating here: the badges were supposed to be returned to G?ring's office upon the death of the recipient so why would a recipient have one engraved? There again, SS Honour Rings were supposed to be returned upon the recipient's death but were awarded engraved. However, these badges do not appear to have been awarded engraved so having them privately engraved would surely amount to vandalism of the Reichsmarschall's property.

PK

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Guest WAR LORD

The point of the award, and its return was in line with other high awards. It is intersting that Hartmann's and Rdells badges are not engraved. The Goering piece is also not engraved. I believe this shows something. The construction of the badges shown dose not comform to the known originals ?

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Just as I was trying to qoute you it disappeared.

The badge did not come from the Hartmann family but from Hartmann directly, cased - with all the other awards and documents he got, including the Oakleaves with Swords and Diamonds. I know it is sometimes hard to believe that something might be real and genuine (especially such an award) but just try to do it this time. If you are looking for a genuine example, this is one!

There is an amusing symmetry to being teased for excessive caution by you. I reconsidered what I wrote after remembering hearing about Hartmann's disposal of his awards. As far as I can remember, Hartmann's badge looks just like Rudel's badge, which I handled many years ago. I believe that Adolf Galland acquired a copy of his badge sometime after the war.

Another question worthwile asking is why Goering would sub-contract the manufacture of an award to a foreign country - at least before the Anschluss? Maybe Stuebiger was not the supplier?

No maker marks other than the gold content on the reverse - and no cut-outs on the outer wing frame.

That's an interesting theory about Rudolf St?biger. Dr Kurt Klietmann attributed the A-St?ck and B-St?ck badges to Rudolf St?biger and St?biger's son confirmed on more than one occasion that his father's firm produced them. Do you have another maker in mind?

Are you aware that when the RK Brillanten grade was instituted on 15.7.1941, Godet sub-contracted the setting of the diamonds to the Paris branch of the American firm of Tiffany? While G?ring was not involved in this, it shows that the German government of the day had no problems with commissioning foreign firms to carry out work for them. Another American firm known as IBM supplied the Gestapo with the filing system that enabled the Final Solution. The RK Brillanten contract was then given to Klein, probably because G?ring made such a scene about what he saw as the low quality of the diamonds used in the prototypical and early pieces supplied by Godet.

I don't see why Hermann G?ring would balk at having his PO Badge with Diamonds award produced by an Austrian jeweller in 1935. He was quite a cultivated man and very old school. Some of the best European Art Deco jewellery came out of Vienna, which had a long tradition of fine jewellery dating back to Hapsburg times. G?ring's F?hrer was Austrian. The unification of Germany and Austria was already on the cards. There was a lot of commerce between the two countries. What would have prevented Hermann G?ring from commissioning Herr St?biger?

PK

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That's an interesting theory about Rudolf St?biger. Dr Kurt Klietmann attributed the A-St?ck and B-St?ck badges to Rudolf St?biger and St?biger's son confirmed on more than one occasion that his father's firm produced them. Do you have another maker in mind?

No, not at all. The question just popped into my mind. Nothing specific or hidden. Just a thought. I only wonder why there is no mark on Hartmann's piece. Was there one on Rudel's?

Are you aware that when the RK Brillanten grade was instituted on 15.7.1941, Godet sub-contracted the setting of the diamonds to the Paris branch of the American firm of Tiffany?

I read about it in one book.

I don't see why Hermann G?ring would balk at having his PO Badge with Diamonds award produced by an Austrian jeweller in 1935. He was quite a cultivated man and very old school. Some of the best European Art Deco jewellery came out of Vienna, which had a long tradition of fine jewellery dating back to Hapsburg times. G?ring's F?hrer was Austrian. The unification of Germany and Austria was already on the cards. There was a lot of commerce between the two countries. What would have prevented Hermann G?ring from commissioning Herr St?biger?

I don't know and I'm not saying something did. Just a thought and maybe even a very off-base one. And I want to state for the record that I have no knowledge about theses pieces at all. I just felt compelled to post the Hartmann piece since I had it scanned during my RK research and I hope this helps the research.

Dietrich

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Guest WAR LORD

PK HAS PUT THIS EXTREEMLY WELL. But let us look at history, the Luftwaffe ws not alloed. The production of this award would be more applicable by a firm outside the Riech. I spock with the young Herr S HE SAID THAT THEY MADE 75 PIECES PLUS THE RATHER HORID WEAR COPY. Why would the Fat Man need to have a second maker. Now lets go further - how many of the S form have been seen? Well how many of the new form have been see? I do not think one has to be to vigalent to come to the conclusion, new type, 1990, in very large numbers. Original S Type 3 known.These have pedigree. Where are all the s tYPES????

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Chris,

could you please help me since I have no idea what you mean:

- what is a new typ

- what do you consider the original S-Type? What are the 3 known examples?

Thanks,

Dietrich

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Guest WAR LORD

To be a bit more clear,

- what is a new typ, this is the type that has come on the market since 1990. The eagle has a defined line round the body. These are often engraved on the reverse with the recipients name.

- what do you consider the original S-Type? These are those made by Herr St?biger. The construction is quite different to the one mentioned above.

What are the 3 known examples? The known pieces with pedigree are, G?ring badge, Hartmann's badge and Rudel's badge. These 3 pieces are the same. Also they were awarded at diferent times, being a time scale of several years. Upon the death of the holder, the badge had to be returned to G?ring's personal office. Tthis is illistrated by the case of General Korten who was mortally wounded in the bomb plot attempt of 20 July 1944. After his death, the badge was not immediately returned and G?ring's office was most indiscreet in requesting its return before his body was cold in its grave.

The returned pieces were reissuded. This brings the question of the engraving into question.

PK PUTS THE QUESTION VERY WELL, "However, these badges do not appear to have been awarded engraved so having them privately engraved would surely amount to vandalism of the Reichsmarschall's property".

Another point of interest is the award worn by Himmler takes the form of the dress copy. Was this because there were not enough in the G?ring personal office to award at the late period?

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Chris,

Thanks for the answer.

Do you know whether the Goering and Rudel piece were marked?

Dietrich

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Guest WAR LORD

Both pieces are unmarked. It would be helpful, if the Hartmann badge and one of the others were shown side by side, obverse and reverse. The differences would be self evident.

Edited by WAR LORD

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Thank you, Chris, for posting the G?ring badge. I believe, if memory serves me correctly, that you acquired this from Eric Campion, who had acquired it along with other items from G?ring's estate back in the 1940s. Campion saved it from being broken up by Hatton Garden jewellers, didn't he?

Anyway, for the benefit of viewers, here are the G?ring and Hartmann badges side by side. It is quite clear that these are the same. One can see that the Rudel badge is also the same, the photograph notwithstanding. The unfortunate conclusion to be drawn is that the Sperrle, Skorzeny and Milch badges are fakes.

Rudel's awards were exhibited in a museum in London's Whitehall, set up by the "Porn King" Paul Raymond, and were the subject of quite a celebrated High Court case when Rudel's widow sued for their return. They had been stolen from Rudel after his surrender by a British Military Policeman.

PK

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post-124-1174502503.jpg

Courtesy of Dietrich Maerz - Image from Detlev Niemann's website

Is this badge, reportedly sold by Niemann for ?60,000.00, the same as the Hartmann and G?ring badges?

PK

Edited by PKeating

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dessloch-otto-color.jpg

Image from www.axishistory.com

Let's leave the A-St?ck badges for a while and have a look at the B-St?ck badges, which were made of gilded silver with cheaper stones. Here's a well known photograph of Generalleutnant Dessloch wearing a B-St?ck badge, identifiable here by the form of the pin. This badge was reportedly sold by www.warrelics.com for $12,500.00 US.

pobadge8.jpg

Here is the badge sold by War Relics. It has been denazified. Here is their spiel, which can be checked on http://www.warelics.com/gallery.html:

This, EXTREMELY RARE, and beautifully hand-crafted Luftwaffe Pilot/Observer badge with "diamonds", with period, expertly and professionally done, "denazification", or removal of the swastika, was the former property of Nazi Luftwaffe Generaloberst, Otto Dessloch, and comes with iron-clad documentation, and provenance, to that effect. The badge, and it's original, blue leatherette case, were given to USA(AF) LTCOL. William F. Woolley, by Luftwaffe GEN. Dessloch, following the end of WWII, after the two men struck up a friendship that continued for many years after the war. Apparently, LTCOL. Woolley and GENOBST. Dessloch were required to work together, after May, 1945, as liason officers in "denazifying", and repatriating, captured, former Luftwaffe officers. Following COL. Woolley's death, the badge and case were purchased by me, from his son, in the spring of 2001.

It is thought that approximately fifty badges, of the actual 14K gold, and genuine diamonds type, were made, and awarded personally by Reichsmarschall HERMANN GOERING. The actual number made of GEN. Dessloch's, so-called "wearer's copy" type is not known, but probably numbers far less than the, Hermann Goering-presented, gold & diamonds type; making the former variety actually much, much RARER than the latter type.

The badge itself is made of sterling silver, which is hallmarked with Austrian silver "cartouche" stamps in the form of a swan, or pelican, in flight, and also struck with "IMIT", and the jeweller's logo (Wien 2), and name, "R. (Rudolf) Stubiger" (see pics). The beautifully designed, graceful, Luftwaffe eagle is handcrafted of sterling silver, and has the eagle's head and chest seperately riveted to the body (see pics). The eagle is fully encrusted with hand-set, "foilback" rhinestones, which display alot of "life", or sparkle. There are no stones missing. The eagle itself is attached to the oval, sterling silver, wreath by two hollow rivets (see pics). The wreath has about 30% of it's original gold wash remaining, and has some light scratching on the right side verso, near the pin housing (see pics), where someone apparently tried to sand-out the "IMIT" stamping in that area of the wreath. The extra-long, wide, flat pin is stamped with the Austrian silver content "cartouche" (vide supra), and the "Wien 2" logo. The original blue leatherette case, in which GEN. Dessloch kept his badge, when not in wear (see the color period photo of Dessloch wearing this ACTUAL badge in the pic section!), has the lid gold-embossed, "Fuhrer u.(und) Beobachterabz.", ("Pilot and Observer Insig."). The bottom of the fitted case is a dark blue velveteen material, with a vertical slot for the long pin, and the interior of the lid is lined in dark blue satin (see pics). The case hinge, and catch assembly, are magnetic (steel).

The documentation and provenance that accompany this RARE Luftwaffe Pilot/Observer Badge with Brilliants, is solid, complete, and irrefutable!!!! This actual badge was formally owned, and definitely

WORN (see color pic), by Luftwaffe Generaloberst OTTO DESSLOCH!

Further information regarding the documentation and provenance, which accompanies this beautiful and exciting piece, is available telephonically, or via electronic mail.

Comments?

PK

Edited by PKeating

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Here is a snapshot, posted on the WAF years ago by the late Bill Stump, of the reverse of the Dessloch badge, which Bill stated was in Bob Hritz's collection. You can see the hallmarks to which the War Relics description refers, along with the abrasions where an attempt was made to obliterate the IMIT stamp on the wreath.

PK

Edited by PKeating

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According to Bill Stump:

The badge I posted on the red background is a first type issued original. It is made in gold, platinum (some are made in 585 white gold) and real diamonds. The issued type are NOT produced by the Stubiger firm. The "IMIT" designates "imitation" stone and some same an imitation of the original. Himmler is seen wearing the "IMIT" wearing his wearing copy badge in many war time photographs. The wing configuration and design is the quickest way to distinguish the wearing copy from the issued badge. Here are examples of each from Wolfe and Hardin's collection.

The badge shown by Bill Stump appears to be the badge offered for sale by War Relics. You can even see the abrasions to the rear of the wreath mentioned in the War Relics spiel. Yet the War Relics spiel was quite clear in its description of the hallmarks on the Dessloch B-St?ck badge. According to them, the Dessloch badge was made of silver and bore the IMIT marks, along with hallmarks for silver content, Vienna and the St?biger firm. Did Bill Stump get it wrong when he remembered Dessloch's badge as being made of gold and platinum?

PK

Edited by PKeating

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post-88-1173432498.jpgpost-88-1173432626.jpg

This "Milch" badge doesn't look much like the Wolfe-Hardin "Milch" badge, does it? But is the Wolfe-Hardin "Milch" A-St?ck badge the same as the Hartmann, G?ring and Rudel badges?

PK

Edited by PKeating

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post-281-1174576474.jpg

post-124-1174502503.jpg

Looking at the lower edge of the eagle's left wing - to the right as we view the photos - I see a similarity between the A-St?ck reportedly sold by Detlev Niemann for ?60,000.00 and the A-St?ck attributed by Wolfe-Hardin to Erhard Milch.

post-281-1174566779.jpg

Looking at the Hartmann and G?ring badges, the way in which this part of the eagle's wing is formed is quite different to the outline presented by the badges proposed by Niemann and Wolfe-Hardin. This cannot be said to be due to handfinishing with files because the wings were fashioned as frames to function as settings for the stones.

Bill Stump was certain about one thing: he believed the B-St?ck badges to have been made by Rudolf St?biger of Vienna and that the A-St?ck badges were made by German jewellers. Given that the badges are clearly different in terms of details like the shape of the eagles' wings and the fact that the B-St?ck wearing copies accepted as originals bear St?biger's hallmark, this seems reasonable. We can dismiss the Skorzeny, engraved "Milch" and Sperrle badges as fakes on the basis of the benchmark afforded by the Hartmann badge. So what are we to think of the two badges proposed by Messrs Wolfe and Hardin and by Herr Niemann when we study the various photographs and scans posted in this thread? Different jewellers between 1935 and 1945? Or are we looking at postwar copies?

PK

Edited by PKeating

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It is hard to make a clear comparison between the Niemann pieces and the Hartmann and G?ring examples based on the photos, since the Niemann photos are shot obliquely from the bottom, which throws off the dimensions and angles somewhat.

However, one thing that does seem clear: in the Hartmann and G?ring examples there are 7 feathers from the tip of the left wing to the wreath. The Rudel piece from post #38 also has 7. In the Niemann and Wolfe-Hardin pieces it looks like 6.

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I promissed not to post the full reverse oif the badge and I will not brake that promiss. This is not because I want to be a 'know it all' - it is because I don't want to help the dark site. Hiowever, I think it might be helpfull to the community to see the difference in construction between the Hartmann badge and the others shown here.

Again, there is no marking on the other wingtip. None whatsoever. And no "holes" or break-thrue's" in the outer frame.

Of course, I do not know whether all genuine badges need to be constructed in this way. And just because I don't know that, I personally would only like to own one which is identical to a known original. Pure pragmatical approach w/o judgement....

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Yeah, well, these guys get so many of these things through their hands each week that they're bound to make mistakes from time to time. Mind you, it works both ways: a mate of mine bought a genuine Zimmermann RK from a top dealer the other day for ?50. The guy handles so many Ritterkreuze that he mistook it for a Latvian fake.

PK

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